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Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)

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  • David Allison
    Hi Folks, My wife and I took the kids to the biodome in Montreal yesterday and stopped by the Botanical Gardens this morning to see the flowers just before
    Message 1 of 23 , Aug 28
      Hi Folks,

      My wife and I took the kids to the biodome in Montreal yesterday and stopped by the Botanical Gardens this morning to see the flowers just before coming home. While we were there, in addition to the usual butterfly suspects, we got some really good looks at what I am fairly sure is a Long-Tailed Skipper. Sadly our camera had died so we had to try and get photos on our ancient flip-phone.

      Please see the attached.

      Thanks,
      David
    • ross layberry
      Hi, David, I agree with your identification. But I think that Rick Cavasin will be able to make the photos clearer. I am sure that Max will be excited about
      Message 2 of 23 , Aug 28
        Hi, David,

        I agree with your identification. But I think that Rick Cavasin will be able to make the photos clearer. I am sure that Max will be excited about it, too, a first record for Quebec. Perhaps you. or Rick, will be able to submit it to eButterfly, for Max.

        Ross
        --------------------------------------------
        On Mon, 8/28/17, David Allison d_k_allison@... [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...> wrote:

        Subject: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)
        To: "Ottawa Butterflies" <butterfly_obs@...>
        Received: Monday, August 28, 2017, 7:51 PM























        Hi
        Folks,
        My wife and I took the kids to the biodome in
        Montreal yesterday and stopped by the Botanical Gardens this
        morning to see the flowers just before coming home. While we
        were there, in addition to the usual butterfly suspects, we
        got some really good looks at what I am fairly sure is a
        Long-Tailed Skipper. Sadly our camera had died so we had to
        try and get photos on our ancient flip-phone.

        Please see the attached.
        Thanks,David
      • Jones, Colin (MNRF)
        Hi all, Very interesting record! My first question would be does either the Biodome or the Montreal Insectarium raise Long-tailed Skippers? If the answer is
        Message 3 of 23 , Aug 28
          Hi all,

          Very interesting record!

          My first question would be does either the Biodome or the Montreal Insectarium raise Long-tailed Skippers? If the answer is yes, then the origin of this individual is suspect.

          If the answer is no, then it's more likley that this individual is a stray from breeding grounds in the south.

          Cheers,
          Colin
          ________________________________________
          From: butterfly_obs@... [butterfly_obs@...]
          Sent: Monday, August 28, 2017 8:38 PM
          To: butterfly_obs@...
          Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)

          Hi, David,

          I agree with your identification. But I think that Rick Cavasin will be able to make the photos clearer. I am sure that Max will be excited about it, too, a first record for Quebec. Perhaps you. or Rick, will be able to submit it to eButterfly, for Max.

          Ross
          --------------------------------------------
          On Mon, 8/28/17, David Allison d_k_allison@... [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...> wrote:

          Subject: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)
          To: "Ottawa Butterflies" <butterfly_obs@...>
          Received: Monday, August 28, 2017, 7:51 PM























          Hi
          Folks,
          My wife and I took the kids to the biodome in
          Montreal yesterday and stopped by the Botanical Gardens this
          morning to see the flowers just before coming home. While we
          were there, in addition to the usual butterfly suspects, we
          got some really good looks at what I am fairly sure is a
          Long-Tailed Skipper. Sadly our camera had died so we had to
          try and get photos on our ancient flip-phone.

          Please see the attached.
          Thanks,David
        • rick cavasin
          I doubt the biodome breeds this species, but Max can confirm that. There s not a whole lot I can do with these photos - the resolution is too low. It does
          Message 4 of 23 , Aug 28
            I doubt the biodome breeds this species, but Max can confirm that.

            There's not a whole lot I can do with these photos - the resolution is too low.  It does look like a Long Tailed Skipper.  I hadn't heard that the species was heading North .  Usually there's talk about this kind of thing down in Maryland.

            Cheers, Rick

            On 28 August 2017 at 21:11, 'Jones, Colin (MNRF)' colin.jones@... [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...> wrote:
            Hi all,

            Very interesting record!

            My first question would be does either the Biodome or the Montreal Insectarium raise Long-tailed Skippers? If the answer is yes, then the origin of this individual is suspect.

            If the answer is no, then it's more likley that this individual is a stray from breeding grounds in the south.

            Cheers,
            Colin
            ______________________________ __________
            From: butterfly_obs@... [butterfly_obs@...]
            Sent: Monday, August 28, 2017 8:38 PM
            To: butterfly_obs@...
            Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)

            Hi, David,

            I agree with your identification. But I think that Rick Cavasin will be able to make the photos clearer. I am sure that Max will be excited about it, too, a first record for Quebec. Perhaps you. or Rick, will be able to submit it to eButterfly, for Max.

            Ross
            ------------------------------ --------------
            On Mon, 8/28/17, David Allison d_k_allison@... [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...> wrote:

            Subject: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)
            To: "Ottawa Butterflies" <butterfly_obs@...>
            Received: Monday, August 28, 2017, 7:51 PM























            Hi
            Folks,
            My wife and I took the kids to the biodome in
            Montreal yesterday and stopped by the Botanical Gardens this
            morning to see the flowers just before coming home. While we
            were there, in addition to the usual butterfly suspects, we
            got some really good looks at what I am fairly sure is a
            Long-Tailed Skipper. Sadly our camera had died so we had to
            try and get photos on our ancient flip-phone.

            Please see the attached.
            Thanks,David





















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          • Gillian Mastromatteo
            Hi everyone, If the biodome doesn t have these butterflies, and if there has been no talk of anyone seeing them between Montreal and their breeding grounds,
            Message 5 of 23 , Aug 29
              Hi everyone,

              If the biodome doesn't have these butterflies, and if there has been no talk of anyone seeing them between Montreal and their breeding grounds, could it be possible that it came in as an egg on some tropical plants brought in to the biodome?  I'm not sure if it does still bring in foreign plants, but after reading horror stories of spiders and other insects coming into the country on produce, why not an egg?

              Cheers,

              Gillian 

              On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 10:13 PM, rick cavasin rrrcav@... [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...> wrote:
               

              I doubt the biodome breeds this species, but Max can confirm that.

              There's not a whole lot I can do with these photos - the resolution is too low.  It does look like a Long Tailed Skipper.  I hadn't heard that the species was heading North .  Usually there's talk about this kind of thing down in Maryland.

              Cheers, Rick

              On 28 August 2017 at 21:11, 'Jones, Colin (MNRF)' colin.jones@... [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...> wrote:
              Hi all,

              Very interesting record!

              My first question would be does either the Biodome or the Montreal Insectarium raise Long-tailed Skippers? If the answer is yes, then the origin of this individual is suspect.

              If the answer is no, then it's more likley that this individual is a stray from breeding grounds in the south.

              Cheers,
              Colin
              ______________________________ __________
              From: butterfly_obs@... [butterfly_obs@...]
              Sent: Monday, August 28, 2017 8:38 PM
              To: butterfly_obs@...
              Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)

              Hi, David,

              I agree with your identification. But I think that Rick Cavasin will be able to make the photos clearer. I am sure that Max will be excited about it, too, a first record for Quebec. Perhaps you. or Rick, will be able to submit it to eButterfly, for Max.

              Ross
              ------------------------------ --------------
              On Mon, 8/28/17, David Allison d_k_allison@... [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...> wrote:

              Subject: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)
              To: "Ottawa Butterflies" <butterfly_obs@...>
              Received: Monday, August 28, 2017, 7:51 PM























              Hi
              Folks,
              My wife and I took the kids to the biodome in
              Montreal yesterday and stopped by the Botanical Gardens this
              morning to see the flowers just before coming home. While we
              were there, in addition to the usual butterfly suspects, we
              got some really good looks at what I am fairly sure is a
              Long-Tailed Skipper. Sadly our camera had died so we had to
              try and get photos on our ancient flip-phone.

              Please see the attached.
              Thanks,David





















              ------------------------------ ------

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            • rick cavasin
              Hi Gillian, Accidental transport of any stage is always a possibility, and it may account for a certain number of the out-of-range observations we ve seen
              Message 6 of 23 , Aug 29
                Hi Gillian,

                Accidental transport of any stage is always a possibility, and it may account for a certain number of the "out-of-range" observations we've seen over the years.  It must happen from time to time, or we would not have Common Blue, European Peacock, European Skipper, and Cabbage Whites in North America.

                In the case of Long-tailed Skipper, the host plants listed in Butterflies of Pennsylvania are "Variety of Legumes including Tick-trefoils, American wisteria, and String Beans".

                If I recall correctly, Long-tailed Skipper had a big year down in the US last year, and there were many reports of them.  I had wondered if we would see any reported in Ontario, but either they didn't make it this far north, or they did, but observers were not in the right place and at the right time to see them.

                I just checked the Leps-Blog's weekly forecast:


                This is an excellent source of information if you're planning to head south, or if you want a heads-up on what might be heading our way in terms of migrants.   It says there was a recent report of Long-Tailed Skipper in Northern VA, so they appear to be on the move again this year.

                Cheers, Rick

                On 29 August 2017 at 06:12, Gillian Mastromatteo sedge.sprite@... [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...> wrote:
                 

                Hi everyone,

                If the biodome doesn't have these butterflies, and if there has been no talk of anyone seeing them between Montreal and their breeding grounds, could it be possible that it came in as an egg on some tropical plants brought in to the biodome?  I'm not sure if it does still bring in foreign plants, but after reading horror stories of spiders and other insects coming into the country on produce, why not an egg?

                Cheers,

                Gillian 

                On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 10:13 PM, rick cavasin rrrcav@... [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...> wrote:
                 

                I doubt the biodome breeds this species, but Max can confirm that.

                There's not a whole lot I can do with these photos - the resolution is too low.  It does look like a Long Tailed Skipper.  I hadn't heard that the species was heading North .  Usually there's talk about this kind of thing down in Maryland.

                Cheers, Rick

                On 28 August 2017 at 21:11, 'Jones, Colin (MNRF)' colin.jones@... [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...> wrote:
                Hi all,

                Very interesting record!

                My first question would be does either the Biodome or the Montreal Insectarium raise Long-tailed Skippers? If the answer is yes, then the origin of this individual is suspect.

                If the answer is no, then it's more likley that this individual is a stray from breeding grounds in the south.

                Cheers,
                Colin
                ______________________________ __________
                From: butterfly_obs@... [butterfly_obs@...]
                Sent: Monday, August 28, 2017 8:38 PM
                To: butterfly_obs@...
                Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)

                Hi, David,

                I agree with your identification. But I think that Rick Cavasin will be able to make the photos clearer. I am sure that Max will be excited about it, too, a first record for Quebec. Perhaps you. or Rick, will be able to submit it to eButterfly, for Max.

                Ross
                ------------------------------ --------------
                On Mon, 8/28/17, David Allison d_k_allison@... [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...> wrote:

                Subject: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)
                To: "Ottawa Butterflies" <butterfly_obs@...>
                Received: Monday, August 28, 2017, 7:51 PM























                Hi
                Folks,
                My wife and I took the kids to the biodome in
                Montreal yesterday and stopped by the Botanical Gardens this
                morning to see the flowers just before coming home. While we
                were there, in addition to the usual butterfly suspects, we
                got some really good looks at what I am fairly sure is a
                Long-Tailed Skipper. Sadly our camera had died so we had to
                try and get photos on our ancient flip-phone.

                Please see the attached.
                Thanks,David





















                ------------------------------ ------

                ------------------------------ ------


                ------------------------------ ------

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              • Judy and Peter Hall
                Hi folks: Congratulations, David. I think we can safely call it a Long-tailed Skipper. I ve seen a fair number in the southern U.S. and in addition to the
                Message 7 of 23 , Aug 29
                  Hi folks:

                  Congratulations, David. I think we can safely call it a Long-tailed Skipper. I've seen a fair number in the southern U.S. and in addition to the tails, the other diagnostic characteristic, that is in these photos, is some irridescent green colouring on the body and on the wings close to the body. No other long tailed skipper in N.A. has that. This species has also been taken over the years in the northern U.S. (eg. New York state and Pennsylvania) almost always in late summer and early fall.

                  If Max can confirm that the Insectarium has not been rearing them, then it is pretty safe to say that it is a legitimate first record for Quebec stray.

                  Cheers

                  Peter



                  From: "rick cavasin rrrcav@... [butterfly_obs]" <butterfly_obs@...>
                  To: "butterfly_obs@..." <butterfly_obs@...>
                  Sent: Monday, August 28, 2017 11:52 PM
                  Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)

                   
                  I doubt the biodome breeds this species, but Max can confirm that.

                  There's not a whole lot I can do with these photos - the resolution is too low.  It does look like a Long Tailed Skipper.  I hadn't heard that the species was heading North .  Usually there's talk about this kind of thing down in Maryland.

                  Cheers, Rick

                  On 28 August 2017 at 21:11, 'Jones, Colin (MNRF)' colin.jones@... [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...> wrote:
                  Hi all,

                  Very interesting record!

                  My first question would be does either the Biodome or the Montreal Insectarium raise Long-tailed Skippers? If the answer is yes, then the origin of this individual is suspect.

                  If the answer is no, then it's more likley that this individual is a stray from breeding grounds in the south.

                  Cheers,
                  Colin
                  ______________________________ __________
                  From: butterfly_obs@... [butterfly_obs@...]
                  Sent: Monday, August 28, 2017 8:38 PM
                  To: butterfly_obs@...
                  Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)

                  Hi, David,

                  I agree with your identification. But I think that Rick Cavasin will be able to make the photos clearer. I am sure that Max will be excited about it, too, a first record for Quebec. Perhaps you. or Rick, will be able to submit it to eButterfly, for Max.

                  Ross
                  ------------------------------ --------------
                  On Mon, 8/28/17, David Allison d_k_allison@... [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...> wrote:

                  Subject: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)
                  To: "Ottawa Butterflies" <butterfly_obs@...>
                  Received: Monday, August 28, 2017, 7:51 PM























                  Hi
                  Folks,
                  My wife and I took the kids to the biodome in
                  Montreal yesterday and stopped by the Botanical Gardens this
                  morning to see the flowers just before coming home. While we
                  were there, in addition to the usual butterfly suspects, we
                  got some really good looks at what I am fairly sure is a
                  Long-Tailed Skipper. Sadly our camera had died so we had to
                  try and get photos on our ancient flip-phone.

                  Please see the attached.
                  Thanks,David





















                  ------------------------------ ------

                  ------------------------------ ------


                  ------------------------------ ------

                  Yahoo Groups Links

                  <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                      http://ca.groups.yahoo.com/ group/butterfly_obs/

                  <*> Your email settings:
                      Individual Email | Traditional

                  <*> To change settings online go to:
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                      (Yahoo! ID required)

                  <*> To change settings via email:
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                  <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                • ross layberry
                  I am not sure why there is so much doubt about this record. It has been reported four times in Ontario, and in circumstances where it looks as if a small
                  Message 8 of 23 , Aug 29
                    I am not sure why there is so much doubt about this record. It has been reported four times in Ontario, and in circumstances where it looks as if a small migration occured. There were two records in 1994, on August 7 at Point Pelee, and on August 18 at Ojibway Prairie, Windsor. And there were two, both photographed, in 2012, on September 1 at Princess Point, Hamilton, and on October 4 in High Park, Toronto. At least this last one can be seen on eButterfly.

                    oss
                    --------------------------------------------
                    On Tue, 8/29/17, Gillian Mastromatteo sedge.sprite@... [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...> wrote:

                    Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)
                    To: "butterfly_obs@..." <butterfly_obs@...>
                    Received: Tuesday, August 29, 2017, 6:12 AM


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                    Hi everyone,
                    If the biodome doesn't have
                    these butterflies, and if there has been no talk of anyone
                    seeing them between Montreal and their breeding grounds,
                    could it be possible that it came in as an egg on some
                    tropical plants brought in to the biodome?  I'm not
                    sure if it does still bring in foreign plants, but after
                    reading horror stories of spiders and other insects coming
                    into the country on produce, why not an egg?
                    Cheers,
                    Gillian 
                    On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at
                    10:13 PM, rick cavasin rrrcav@...
                    [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...>
                    wrote:












                     

                     



                     


                       
                         
                         
                          I doubt the biodome breeds this
                    species, but Max can confirm that.
                    There's not a whole lot I can do
                    with these photos - the resolution is too low.  It does
                    look like a Long Tailed Skipper.  I hadn't heard that
                    the species was heading North .  Usually there's talk
                    about this kind of thing down in Maryland.
                    Cheers, Rick
                    On 28 August 2017 at 21:11,
                    'Jones, Colin (MNRF)' colin.jones@...
                    [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...>
                    wrote:
                    Hi all,



                    Very interesting record!



                    My first question would be does either the Biodome or the
                    Montreal Insectarium raise Long-tailed Skippers? If the
                    answer is yes, then the origin of this individual is
                    suspect.



                    If the answer is no, then it's more likley that this
                    individual is a stray from breeding grounds in the south.



                    Cheers,

                    Colin

                    ______________________________ __________

                    From: butterfly_obs@...
                    [butterfly_obs@...]

                    Sent: Monday, August 28, 2017 8:38 PM

                    To: butterfly_obs@...

                    Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper?
                    (Montreal)



                    Hi, David,



                    I agree with your identification. But I think that Rick
                    Cavasin will be able to make the photos clearer. I am sure
                    that Max will be excited about it, too, a first record for
                    Quebec. Perhaps you. or Rick, will be able to submit it to
                    eButterfly, for Max.



                    Ross

                    ------------------------------ --------------

                    On Mon, 8/28/17, David Allison d_k_allison@...
                    [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...>
                    wrote:



                    Subject: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)

                    To: "Ottawa Butterflies" <butterfly_obs@...>

                    Received: Monday, August 28, 2017, 7:51 PM















































                    Hi

                    Folks,

                    My wife and I took the kids to the biodome in

                    Montreal yesterday and stopped by the Botanical Gardens
                    this

                    morning to see the flowers just before coming home. While
                    we

                    were there, in addition to the usual butterfly suspects,
                    we

                    got some really good looks at what I am fairly sure is a

                    Long-Tailed Skipper. Sadly our camera had died so we had
                    to

                    try and get photos on our ancient flip-phone.



                    Please see the attached.

                    Thanks,David











































                    ------------------------------ ------



                    ------------------------------ ------





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                  • rick cavasin
                    I think Colin was the one who originally brought up the possibility of it being an escapee. The thought never really crossed my mind. On 29 August 2017 at
                    Message 9 of 23 , Aug 29
                      I think Colin was the one who originally brought up the possibility of it being an escapee.

                      The thought never really crossed my mind.  

                      On 29 August 2017 at 09:15, ross layberry rosslayberry@... [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...> wrote:
                       

                      I am not sure why there is so much doubt about this record. It has been reported four times in Ontario, and in circumstances where it looks as if a small migration occured. There were two records in 1994, on August 7 at Point Pelee, and on August 18 at Ojibway Prairie, Windsor. And there were two, both photographed, in 2012, on September 1 at Princess Point, Hamilton, and on October 4 in High Park, Toronto. At least this last one can be seen on eButterfly.

                      oss
                      ------------------------------ --------------
                      On Tue, 8/29/17, Gillian Mastromatteo sedge.sprite@... [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...> wrote:

                      Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)
                      To: "butterfly_obs@..." <butterfly_obs@...>
                      Received: Tuesday, August 29, 2017, 6:12 AM


                      #yiv6336530002 #yiv6336530002 --

                       
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                      Hi everyone,
                      If the biodome doesn't have
                      these butterflies, and if there has been no talk of anyone
                      seeing them between Montreal and their breeding grounds,
                      could it be possible that it came in as an egg on some
                      tropical plants brought in to the biodome?  I'm not
                      sure if it does still bring in foreign plants, but after
                      reading horror stories of spiders and other insects coming
                      into the country on produce, why not an egg?
                      Cheers,
                      Gillian 
                      On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at
                      10:13 PM, rick cavasin rrrcav@...
                      [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...>
                      wrote:














                       

                       



                       


                         
                           
                           
                            I doubt the biodome breeds this
                      species, but Max can confirm that.
                      There's not a whole lot I can do
                      with these photos - the resolution is too low.  It does
                      look like a Long Tailed Skipper.  I hadn't heard that
                      the species was heading North .  Usually there's talk
                      about this kind of thing down in Maryland.
                      Cheers, Rick
                      On 28 August 2017 at 21:11,
                      'Jones, Colin (MNRF)' colin.jones@...
                      [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...>
                      wrote:
                      Hi all,



                      Very interesting record!



                      My first question would be does either the Biodome or the
                      Montreal Insectarium raise Long-tailed Skippers? If the
                      answer is yes, then the origin of this individual is
                      suspect.



                      If the answer is no, then it's more likley that this
                      individual is a stray from breeding grounds in the south.



                      Cheers,

                      Colin

                      ______________________________ __________

                      From: butterfly_obs@...
                      [butterfly_obs@...]

                      Sent: Monday, August 28, 2017 8:38 PM

                      To: butterfly_obs@...

                      Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper?
                      (Montreal)



                      Hi, David,



                      I agree with your identification. But I think that Rick
                      Cavasin will be able to make the photos clearer. I am sure
                      that Max will be excited about it, too, a first record for
                      Quebec. Perhaps you. or Rick, will be able to submit it to
                      eButterfly, for Max.



                      Ross

                      ------------------------------ --------------

                      On Mon, 8/28/17, David Allison d_k_allison@...
                      [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...>
                      wrote:



                      Subject: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)

                      To: "Ottawa Butterflies" <butterfly_obs@...>

                      Received: Monday, August 28, 2017, 7:51 PM















































                      Hi

                      Folks,

                      My wife and I took the kids to the biodome in

                      Montreal yesterday and stopped by the Botanical Gardens
                      this

                      morning to see the flowers just before coming home. While
                      we

                      were there, in addition to the usual butterfly suspects,
                      we

                      got some really good looks at what I am fairly sure is a

                      Long-Tailed Skipper. Sadly our camera had died so we had
                      to

                      try and get photos on our ancient flip-phone.



                      Please see the attached.

                      Thanks,David











































                      ------------------------------ ------



                      ------------------------------ ------





                      ------------------------------ ------



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                      up/butterfly_obs/



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                    • Jones, Colin (MNRF)
                      Hi all, I just want to be clear that I m not saying that this individual couldn t be a legitimate stray from the south. As Ross has pointed out there are
                      Message 10 of 23 , Aug 29
                        Hi all,

                        I just want to be clear that I'm not saying that this individual couldn't be a legitimate stray from the south. As Ross has pointed out there are records from S Ontario and elsewhere in the northeast.

                        What I'm suggesting is that there is also a possibility that this individual has escaped from one of two museums known to rear insects...both of these facilities are immediately beside the Botanical Gardens.

                        There is at least one record of a Blue Morpho from the Niagara Gorge - it's origin is surely from the Niagara Butterfly Conservatory so we know that these things can and do escape.

                        I think that it is important to look at all of the possibilities. If, for example, either of these facilities does raise Long-tailed Skipper, then I don't think that we could rule out the possibility that this individual's origin is more likely to have been an escape.

                        Also, as Rick has mentioned, there doesn't seem to be any kind of movement of this species northward this year which doesn't completely rule out the possibility of this being a stray but it does seem odd that one would show up even further north (a new northernmost record?) with few to no other records this year N of Tennessee/W Virginia.

                        Cheers,
                        Colin

                        ________________________________
                        From: butterfly_obs@... [butterfly_obs@...]
                        Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2017 9:19 AM
                        To: butterfly_obs@...
                        Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)



                        I think Colin was the one who originally brought up the possibility of it being an escapee.

                        The thought never really crossed my mind.

                        On 29 August 2017 at 09:15, ross layberry rosslayberry@...<mailto:rosslayberry@...> [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>> wrote:


                        I am not sure why there is so much doubt about this record. It has been reported four times in Ontario, and in circumstances where it looks as if a small migration occured. There were two records in 1994, on August 7 at Point Pelee, and on August 18 at Ojibway Prairie, Windsor. And there were two, both photographed, in 2012, on September 1 at Princess Point, Hamilton, and on October 4 in High Park, Toronto. At least this last one can be seen on eButterfly.

                        oss
                        --------------------------------------------
                        On Tue, 8/29/17, Gillian Mastromatteo sedge.sprite@...<mailto:sedge.sprite@...> [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>> wrote:

                        Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)
                        To: "butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>" <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>
                        Received: Tuesday, August 29, 2017, 6:12 AM


                        #yiv6336530002 #yiv6336530002 --


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                        Hi everyone,
                        If the biodome doesn't have
                        these butterflies, and if there has been no talk of anyone
                        seeing them between Montreal and their breeding grounds,
                        could it be possible that it came in as an egg on some
                        tropical plants brought in to the biodome? I'm not
                        sure if it does still bring in foreign plants, but after
                        reading horror stories of spiders and other insects coming
                        into the country on produce, why not an egg?
                        Cheers,
                        Gillian
                        On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at
                        10:13 PM, rick cavasin rrrcav@...<mailto:rrrcav@...>
                        [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>
                        wrote:

























                        I doubt the biodome breeds this
                        species, but Max can confirm that.
                        There's not a whole lot I can do
                        with these photos - the resolution is too low. It does
                        look like a Long Tailed Skipper. I hadn't heard that
                        the species was heading North . Usually there's talk
                        about this kind of thing down in Maryland.
                        Cheers, Rick
                        On 28 August 2017 at 21:11,
                        'Jones, Colin (MNRF)' colin.jones@...<mailto:colin.jones@...>
                        [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>
                        wrote:
                        Hi all,



                        Very interesting record!



                        My first question would be does either the Biodome or the
                        Montreal Insectarium raise Long-tailed Skippers? If the
                        answer is yes, then the origin of this individual is
                        suspect.



                        If the answer is no, then it's more likley that this
                        individual is a stray from breeding grounds in the south.



                        Cheers,

                        Colin

                        ______________________________ __________

                        From: butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>
                        [butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>]

                        Sent: Monday, August 28, 2017 8:38 PM

                        To: butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>

                        Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper?
                        (Montreal)



                        Hi, David,



                        I agree with your identification. But I think that Rick
                        Cavasin will be able to make the photos clearer. I am sure
                        that Max will be excited about it, too, a first record for
                        Quebec. Perhaps you. or Rick, will be able to submit it to
                        eButterfly, for Max.



                        Ross

                        ------------------------------ --------------

                        On Mon, 8/28/17, David Allison d_k_allison@...<mailto:d_k_allison@...>
                        [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>
                        wrote:



                        Subject: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)

                        To: "Ottawa Butterflies" <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>

                        Received: Monday, August 28, 2017, 7:51 PM















































                        Hi

                        Folks,

                        My wife and I took the kids to the biodome in

                        Montreal yesterday and stopped by the Botanical Gardens
                        this

                        morning to see the flowers just before coming home. While
                        we

                        were there, in addition to the usual butterfly suspects,
                        we

                        got some really good looks at what I am fairly sure is a

                        Long-Tailed Skipper. Sadly our camera had died so we had
                        to

                        try and get photos on our ancient flip-phone.



                        Please see the attached.

                        Thanks,David











































                        ------------------------------ ------



                        ------------------------------ ------





                        ------------------------------ ------



                        Yahoo Groups Links



                        http://ca.groups.yahoo.com/gro
                        up/butterfly_obs/



                        Individual Email | Traditional



                        http://ca.groups.yahoo.com/gro
                        up/butterfly_obs/join

                        (Yahoo! ID required)



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                        ps.ca<http://ps.ca>

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                        oogroups.ca<http://oogroups.ca>



                        butterfly_obs-unsubscribe@yaho
                        ogroups.ca<http://ogroups.ca>



                        https://info.yahoo.com/legal/c
                        a/yahoo/utos/utos-ca01.html
                      • David Allison
                        Hi Folks, I did consider the possibility of escape since it was so close to the insectarium which we had just visited. I pointed it out to a staff member who
                        Message 11 of 23 , Aug 29
                          Hi Folks,

                          I did consider the possibility of escape since it was so close to the insectarium which we had just visited. I pointed it out to a staff member who said that they don't usually have any butterflies being raised or bred but when they do it is only local ones such as Monarchs. Also they said they didn't have any live butterflies at this time. Staff I spoke to had never seen this one and it took a while to convince them it was even in the skipper family. Another lady came along shortly after us who had Rick's fold out butterfly guide. When she saw it wasn't in that guide she had a good camera and got lots of nice photos. Hopefully she will post them or provide them to someone.

                          I didn't think to ask about tropical plants but they certainly have lots there although I don't know if they import them or raise them in one of their greenhouses on site from seed or previous year plants. Montreal obviously has a busy airport and shipping terminal so there are lots of possible sources in addition to an accidental stray.

                          Thanks,
                          David


                          From: "'Jones, Colin (MNRF)' colin.jones@... [butterfly_obs]" <butterfly_obs@...>
                          To: "butterfly_obs@..." <butterfly_obs@...>
                          Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2017 10:00 AM
                          Subject: RE: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)

                          Hi all,

                          I just want to be clear that I'm not saying that this individual couldn't be a legitimate stray from the south. As Ross has pointed out there are records from S Ontario and elsewhere in the northeast.

                          What I'm suggesting is that there is also a possibility that this individual has escaped from one of two museums known to rear insects...both of these facilities are immediately beside the Botanical Gardens.

                          There is at least one record of a Blue Morpho from the Niagara Gorge - it's origin is surely from the Niagara Butterfly Conservatory so we know that these things can and do escape.

                          I think that it is important to look at all of the possibilities. If, for example, either of these facilities does raise Long-tailed Skipper, then I don't think that we could rule out the possibility that this individual's origin is more likely to have been an escape.

                          Also, as Rick has mentioned, there doesn't seem to be any kind of movement of this species northward this year which doesn't completely rule out the possibility of this being a stray but it does seem odd that one would show up even further north (a new northernmost record?) with few to no other records this year N of Tennessee/W Virginia.

                          Cheers,
                          Colin

                          ________________________________
                          Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2017 9:19 AM
                          Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)



                          I think Colin was the one who originally brought up the possibility of it being an escapee.

                          The thought never really crossed my mind.

                          On 29 August 2017 at 09:15, ross layberry rosslayberry@...<mailto:rosslayberry@...> [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>> wrote:


                          I am not sure why there is so much doubt about this record. It has been reported four times in Ontario, and in circumstances where it looks as if a small migration occured. There were two records in 1994, on August 7 at Point Pelee, and on August 18 at Ojibway Prairie, Windsor. And there were two, both photographed, in 2012, on September 1 at Princess Point, Hamilton, and on October 4 in High Park, Toronto. At least this last one can be seen on eButterfly.

                          oss
                          --------------------------------------------
                          On Tue, 8/29/17, Gillian Mastromatteo sedge.sprite@...<mailto:sedge.sprite@...> [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>> wrote:

                          Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)
                          Received: Tuesday, August 29, 2017, 6:12 AM


                          #yiv6336530002 #yiv6336530002 --


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                          Hi everyone,
                          If the biodome doesn't have
                          these butterflies, and if there has been no talk of anyone
                          seeing them between Montreal and their breeding grounds,
                          could it be possible that it came in as an egg on some
                          tropical plants brought in to the biodome?  I'm not
                          sure if it does still bring in foreign plants, but after
                          reading horror stories of spiders and other insects coming
                          into the country on produce, why not an egg?
                          Cheers,
                          Gillian
                          On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at
                          10:13 PM, rick cavasin rrrcav@...<mailto:rrrcav@...>
                          [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>
                          wrote:

























                                I doubt the biodome breeds this
                          species, but Max can confirm that.
                          There's not a whole lot I can do
                          with these photos - the resolution is too low.  It does
                          look like a Long Tailed Skipper.  I hadn't heard that
                          the species was heading North .  Usually there's talk
                          about this kind of thing down in Maryland.
                          Cheers, Rick
                          On 28 August 2017 at 21:11,
                          'Jones, Colin (MNRF)' colin.jones@...<mailto:colin.jones@...>
                          [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>
                          wrote:
                          Hi all,



                          Very interesting record!



                          My first question would be does either the Biodome or the
                          Montreal Insectarium raise Long-tailed Skippers? If the
                          answer is yes, then the origin of this individual is
                          suspect.



                          If the answer is no, then it's more likley that this
                          individual is a stray from breeding grounds in the south.



                          Cheers,

                          Colin

                          ______________________________ __________


                          Sent: Monday, August 28, 2017 8:38 PM


                          Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper?
                          (Montreal)



                          Hi, David,



                          I agree with your identification. But I think that Rick
                          Cavasin will be able to make the photos clearer. I am sure
                          that Max will be excited about it, too, a first record for
                          Quebec. Perhaps you. or Rick, will be able to submit it to
                          eButterfly, for Max.



                          Ross

                          ------------------------------ --------------

                          On Mon, 8/28/17, David Allison d_k_allison@...<mailto:d_k_allison@...>
                          [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>
                          wrote:



                          Subject: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)

                          To: "Ottawa Butterflies" <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>

                          Received: Monday, August 28, 2017, 7:51 PM















































                          Hi

                          Folks,

                          My wife and I took the kids to the biodome in

                          Montreal yesterday and stopped by the Botanical Gardens
                          this

                          morning to see the flowers just before coming home. While
                          we

                          were there, in addition to the usual butterfly suspects,
                          we

                          got some really good looks at what I am fairly sure is a

                          Long-Tailed Skipper. Sadly our camera had died so we had
                          to

                          try and get photos on our ancient flip-phone.



                          Please see the attached.

                          Thanks,David











































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                        • rick cavasin
                          Hi All, I was in touch with Max today, I guess he hasn t been reading the list because he had heard that the species was seen at the Botanical Gardens, but
                          Message 12 of 23 , Aug 29
                            Hi All,

                            I was in touch with Max today, I guess he hasn't been reading the list because he had heard that the species was seen at the Botanical Gardens, but wasn't aware that it had been posted to the Ottawa list.

                            Max says this is not a species they ever raise at the Instectarium, and he strongly doubts that it could have come in on any plants - he says that most ( all? ) of the plants used at the Botanical Gardens are grown on site.

                            He's of the ( strong ) opinion that this is a legitimate stray.

                            As Ross pointed out, it has happened before in Ontario.  Who knows how many times exotics like this pass through our area without there being anyone around to notice.

                            Cheers, Rick

                            On 29 August 2017 at 19:41, David Allison d_k_allison@... [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...> wrote:
                             

                            Hi Folks,

                            I did consider the possibility of escape since it was so close to the insectarium which we had just visited. I pointed it out to a staff member who said that they don't usually have any butterflies being raised or bred but when they do it is only local ones such as Monarchs. Also they said they didn't have any live butterflies at this time. Staff I spoke to had never seen this one and it took a while to convince them it was even in the skipper family. Another lady came along shortly after us who had Rick's fold out butterfly guide. When she saw it wasn't in that guide she had a good camera and got lots of nice photos. Hopefully she will post them or provide them to someone.

                            I didn't think to ask about tropical plants but they certainly have lots there although I don't know if they import them or raise them in one of their greenhouses on site from seed or previous year plants. Montreal obviously has a busy airport and shipping terminal so there are lots of possible sources in addition to an accidental stray.

                            Thanks,
                            David


                            From: "'Jones, Colin (MNRF)' colin.jones@... [butterfly_obs]" <butterfly_obs@...>
                            To: "butterfly_obs@..." <butterfly_obs@...>
                            Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2017 10:00 AM
                            Subject: RE: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)

                            Hi all,

                            I just want to be clear that I'm not saying that this individual couldn't be a legitimate stray from the south. As Ross has pointed out there are records from S Ontario and elsewhere in the northeast.

                            What I'm suggesting is that there is also a possibility that this individual has escaped from one of two museums known to rear insects...both of these facilities are immediately beside the Botanical Gardens.

                            There is at least one record of a Blue Morpho from the Niagara Gorge - it's origin is surely from the Niagara Butterfly Conservatory so we know that these things can and do escape.

                            I think that it is important to look at all of the possibilities. If, for example, either of these facilities does raise Long-tailed Skipper, then I don't think that we could rule out the possibility that this individual's origin is more likely to have been an escape.

                            Also, as Rick has mentioned, there doesn't seem to be any kind of movement of this species northward this year which doesn't completely rule out the possibility of this being a stray but it does seem odd that one would show up even further north (a new northernmost record?) with few to no other records this year N of Tennessee/W Virginia.

                            Cheers,
                            Colin

                            ______________________________ __
                            Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2017 9:19 AM
                            Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)



                            I think Colin was the one who originally brought up the possibility of it being an escapee.

                            The thought never really crossed my mind.

                            On 29 August 2017 at 09:15, ross layberry rosslayberry@...<mailto:r osslayberry@...> [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...< mailto:butterfly_obs@ yahoogroups.ca>> wrote:


                            I am not sure why there is so much doubt about this record. It has been reported four times in Ontario, and in circumstances where it looks as if a small migration occured. There were two records in 1994, on August 7 at Point Pelee, and on August 18 at Ojibway Prairie, Windsor. And there were two, both photographed, in 2012, on September 1 at Princess Point, Hamilton, and on October 4 in High Park, Toronto. At least this last one can be seen on eButterfly.

                            oss
                            ------------------------------ --------------
                            On Tue, 8/29/17, Gillian Mastromatteo sedge.sprite@...<mailto: sedge.sprite@...> [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...< mailto:butterfly_obs@ yahoogroups.ca>> wrote:

                            Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)
                            Received: Tuesday, August 29, 2017, 6:12 AM


                            #yiv6336530002 #yiv6336530002 --


                            #yiv6336530002 .yiv6336530002ygrp-photo- title{
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                            Hi everyone,
                            If the biodome doesn't have
                            these butterflies, and if there has been no talk of anyone
                            seeing them between Montreal and their breeding grounds,
                            could it be possible that it came in as an egg on some
                            tropical plants brought in to the biodome?  I'm not
                            sure if it does still bring in foreign plants, but after
                            reading horror stories of spiders and other insects coming
                            into the country on produce, why not an egg?
                            Cheers,
                            Gillian
                            On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at
                            10:13 PM, rick cavasin rrrcav@...<mailto:rrrcav @...>
                            wrote:

























                                  I doubt the biodome breeds this
                            species, but Max can confirm that.
                            There's not a whole lot I can do
                            with these photos - the resolution is too low.  It does
                            look like a Long Tailed Skipper.  I hadn't heard that
                            the species was heading North .  Usually there's talk
                            about this kind of thing down in Maryland.
                            Cheers, Rick
                            On 28 August 2017 at 21:11,
                            'Jones, Colin (MNRF)' colin.jones@...<mailto: colin.jones@...>
                            wrote:
                            Hi all,



                            Very interesting record!



                            My first question would be does either the Biodome or the
                            Montreal Insectarium raise Long-tailed Skippers? If the
                            answer is yes, then the origin of this individual is
                            suspect.



                            If the answer is no, then it's more likley that this
                            individual is a stray from breeding grounds in the south.



                            Cheers,

                            Colin

                            ______________________________ __________


                            Sent: Monday, August 28, 2017 8:38 PM


                            Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper?
                            (Montreal)



                            Hi, David,



                            I agree with your identification. But I think that Rick
                            Cavasin will be able to make the photos clearer. I am sure
                            that Max will be excited about it, too, a first record for
                            Quebec. Perhaps you. or Rick, will be able to submit it to
                            eButterfly, for Max.



                            Ross

                            ------------------------------ --------------

                            On Mon, 8/28/17, David Allison d_k_allison@...<mailto:d_ k_allison@...>
                            wrote:



                            Subject: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)

                            To: "Ottawa Butterflies" <butterfly_obs@...< mailto:butterfly_obs@ yahoogroups.ca>>

                            Received: Monday, August 28, 2017, 7:51 PM















































                            Hi

                            Folks,

                            My wife and I took the kids to the biodome in

                            Montreal yesterday and stopped by the Botanical Gardens
                            this

                            morning to see the flowers just before coming home. While
                            we

                            were there, in addition to the usual butterfly suspects,
                            we

                            got some really good looks at what I am fairly sure is a

                            Long-Tailed Skipper. Sadly our camera had died so we had
                            to

                            try and get photos on our ancient flip-phone.



                            Please see the attached.

                            Thanks,David











































                            ------------------------------ ------



                            ------------------------------ ------





                            ------------------------------ ------



                            Yahoo Groups Links



                            up/butterfly_obs/



                                Individual Email | Traditional



                            up/butterfly_obs/join

                                (Yahoo! ID required)










                            a/yahoo/utos/utos-ca01.html


















































                            ------------------------------ ------

                            ------------------------------ ------


                            ------------------------------ ------

                            Yahoo Groups Links

                            <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:

                            <*> Your email settings:
                                Individual Email | Traditional

                            <*> To change settings online go to:
                                (Yahoo! ID required)

                            <*> To change settings via email:

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                          • Judy and Peter Hall
                            Hi folks: I have been following this string of e-mails on the L-t Skipper in Montreal with interest as it raises the question of when do you accept, or not, a
                            Message 13 of 23 , Aug 30
                              Hi folks:

                              I have been following this string of e-mails on the L-t Skipper in Montreal with interest as it raises the question of when do you accept, or not, a record of a rare or stray species. This can be important when you consider such things as regional, provincial, national checklists and possible protection mechanisms for species at risk. It will also become more important as species continue to expand their known ranges due to climate change. 

                              I am aware of a number of noteworthy records in Ontario and Quebec that were questionable at the time for a variety of reasons and never really resolved. Some were sightings with no validating specimen or photo. Some were the result of possible mislabelling of specimens through error or falsification. Some of these were accepted into the literature and passed on in subsequent publications. Others were dismissed and later proved to be true when subsequent individuals of the species were found.

                              There are obviously a number of factors that need to be considered. These could include positive ID of a species, number of people observing it, supporting specimens or photos, habitat seen, distance from nearest known record, weather conditions, possibility of escapees.

                              The birding community has been dealing with all such records through the establishment of rare bird record committees at different levels (regional, provincial, national, continental). Is it time the butterfly community consider forming its own such committees. I know we have peer review opportunities for follow up to important sightings and we have vetting mechansims for electronic databasing of observations. However, so does the birding community. It would only be those very unusual and debatable records that would be considered by a committee.This is how the birding community handles it under established guidelines.

                              These are my initial thoughts on this issue. Happy to hear any comments or suggestions.

                              Cheers

                              Peter



                              From: "rick cavasin rrrcav@... [butterfly_obs]" <butterfly_obs@...>
                              To: "butterfly_obs@..." <butterfly_obs@...>
                              Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2017 2:09 AM
                              Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)

                               
                              Hi All,

                              I was in touch with Max today, I guess he hasn't been reading the list because he had heard that the species was seen at the Botanical Gardens, but wasn't aware that it had been posted to the Ottawa list.

                              Max says this is not a species they ever raise at the Instectarium, and he strongly doubts that it could have come in on any plants - he says that most ( all? ) of the plants used at the Botanical Gardens are grown on site.

                              He's of the ( strong ) opinion that this is a legitimate stray.

                              As Ross pointed out, it has happened before in Ontario.  Who knows how many times exotics like this pass through our area without there being anyone around to notice.

                              Cheers, Rick



                              On 29 August 2017 at 19:41, David Allison d_k_allison@... [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...> wrote:
                               
                              Hi Folks,

                              I did consider the possibility of escape since it was so close to the insectarium which we had just visited. I pointed it out to a staff member who said that they don't usually have any butterflies being raised or bred but when they do it is only local ones such as Monarchs. Also they said they didn't have any live butterflies at this time. Staff I spoke to had never seen this one and it took a while to convince them it was even in the skipper family. Another lady came along shortly after us who had Rick's fold out butterfly guide. When she saw it wasn't in that guide she had a good camera and got lots of nice photos. Hopefully she will post them or provide them to someone.

                              I didn't think to ask about tropical plants but they certainly have lots there although I don't know if they import them or raise them in one of their greenhouses on site from seed or previous year plants. Montreal obviously has a busy airport and shipping terminal so there are lots of possible sources in addition to an accidental stray.

                              Thanks,
                              David


                              From: "'Jones, Colin (MNRF)' colin.jones@... [butterfly_obs]" <butterfly_obs@...>
                              To: "butterfly_obs@..." <butterfly_obs@...>
                              Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2017 10:00 AM
                              Subject: RE: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)

                              Hi all,

                              I just want to be clear that I'm not saying that this individual couldn't be a legitimate stray from the south. As Ross has pointed out there are records from S Ontario and elsewhere in the northeast.

                              What I'm suggesting is that there is also a possibility that this individual has escaped from one of two museums known to rear insects...both of these facilities are immediately beside the Botanical Gardens.

                              There is at least one record of a Blue Morpho from the Niagara Gorge - it's origin is surely from the Niagara Butterfly Conservatory so we know that these things can and do escape.

                              I think that it is important to look at all of the possibilities. If, for example, either of these facilities does raise Long-tailed Skipper, then I don't think that we could rule out the possibility that this individual's origin is more likely to have been an escape.

                              Also, as Rick has mentioned, there doesn't seem to be any kind of movement of this species northward this year which doesn't completely rule out the possibility of this being a stray but it does seem odd that one would show up even further north (a new northernmost record?) with few to no other records this year N of Tennessee/W Virginia.

                              Cheers,
                              Colin

                              ______________________________ __
                              Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2017 9:19 AM
                              Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)



                              I think Colin was the one who originally brought up the possibility of it being an escapee.

                              The thought never really crossed my mind.

                              On 29 August 2017 at 09:15, ross layberry rosslayberry@...<mailto:r osslayberry@...> [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...< mailto:butterfly_obs@ yahoogroups.ca>> wrote:


                              I am not sure why there is so much doubt about this record. It has been reported four times in Ontario, and in circumstances where it looks as if a small migration occured. There were two records in 1994, on August 7 at Point Pelee, and on August 18 at Ojibway Prairie, Windsor. And there were two, both photographed, in 2012, on September 1 at Princess Point, Hamilton, and on October 4 in High Park, Toronto. At least this last one can be seen on eButterfly.

                              oss
                              ------------------------------ --------------
                              On Tue, 8/29/17, Gillian Mastromatteo sedge.sprite@...<mailto: sedge.sprite@...> [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...< mailto:butterfly_obs@ yahoogroups.ca>> wrote:

                              Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)
                              Received: Tuesday, August 29, 2017, 6:12 AM


                              #yiv6336530002 #yiv6336530002 --


                              #yiv6336530002 .yiv6336530002ygrp-photo- title{
                              clear:both;font-size:smaller; min-height:15px;overflow: hidden;text-align:center; width:75px;}
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                              Hi everyone,
                              If the biodome doesn't have
                              these butterflies, and if there has been no talk of anyone
                              seeing them between Montreal and their breeding grounds,
                              could it be possible that it came in as an egg on some
                              tropical plants brought in to the biodome?  I'm not
                              sure if it does still bring in foreign plants, but after
                              reading horror stories of spiders and other insects coming
                              into the country on produce, why not an egg?
                              Cheers,
                              Gillian
                              On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at
                              10:13 PM, rick cavasin rrrcav@...<mailto:rrrcav @...>
                              wrote:

























                                    I doubt the biodome breeds this
                              species, but Max can confirm that.
                              There's not a whole lot I can do
                              with these photos - the resolution is too low.  It does
                              look like a Long Tailed Skipper.  I hadn't heard that
                              the species was heading North .  Usually there's talk
                              about this kind of thing down in Maryland.
                              Cheers, Rick
                              On 28 August 2017 at 21:11,
                              'Jones, Colin (MNRF)' colin.jones@...<mailto: colin.jones@...>
                              wrote:
                              Hi all,



                              Very interesting record!



                              My first question would be does either the Biodome or the
                              Montreal Insectarium raise Long-tailed Skippers? If the
                              answer is yes, then the origin of this individual is
                              suspect.



                              If the answer is no, then it's more likley that this
                              individual is a stray from breeding grounds in the south.



                              Cheers,

                              Colin

                              ______________________________ __________


                              Sent: Monday, August 28, 2017 8:38 PM


                              Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper?
                              (Montreal)



                              Hi, David,



                              I agree with your identification. But I think that Rick
                              Cavasin will be able to make the photos clearer. I am sure
                              that Max will be excited about it, too, a first record for
                              Quebec. Perhaps you. or Rick, will be able to submit it to
                              eButterfly, for Max.



                              Ross

                              ------------------------------ --------------

                              On Mon, 8/28/17, David Allison d_k_allison@...<mailto:d_ k_allison@...>
                              wrote:



                              Subject: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)

                              To: "Ottawa Butterflies" <butterfly_obs@...< mailto:butterfly_obs@ yahoogroups.ca>>

                              Received: Monday, August 28, 2017, 7:51 PM















































                              Hi

                              Folks,

                              My wife and I took the kids to the biodome in

                              Montreal yesterday and stopped by the Botanical Gardens
                              this

                              morning to see the flowers just before coming home. While
                              we

                              were there, in addition to the usual butterfly suspects,
                              we

                              got some really good looks at what I am fairly sure is a

                              Long-Tailed Skipper. Sadly our camera had died so we had
                              to

                              try and get photos on our ancient flip-phone.



                              Please see the attached.

                              Thanks,David











































                              ------------------------------ ------



                              ------------------------------ ------





                              ------------------------------ ------



                              Yahoo Groups Links



                              up/butterfly_obs/



                                  Individual Email | Traditional



                              up/butterfly_obs/join

                                  (Yahoo! ID required)










                              a/yahoo/utos/utos-ca01.html


















































                              ------------------------------ ------

                              ------------------------------ ------


                              ------------------------------ ------

                              Yahoo Groups Links

                              <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:

                              <*> Your email settings:
                                  Individual Email | Traditional

                              <*> To change settings online go to:
                                  (Yahoo! ID required)

                              <*> To change settings via email:

                              <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

                              <*> Your use of Yahoo Groups is subject to:






                            • ross layberry
                              I guess the birding community does have one disadvantage when compared to the butterfly world: they never shoot the rare birds so there is almost never the
                              Message 14 of 23 , Aug 30
                                I guess the birding community does have one disadvantage when compared to the butterfly world: they never shoot the rare birds so there is almost never the kind of non-debatable evidence that we often get with butterflies!

                                Ross
                                --------------------------------------------
                                On Wed, 8/30/17, Judy and Peter Hall halljp@... [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...> wrote:

                                Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)
                                To: "butterfly_obs@..." <butterfly_obs@...>
                                Received: Wednesday, August 30, 2017, 3:26 PM























                                Hi
                                folks:
                                I
                                have been following this string of e-mails on the L-t
                                Skipper in Montreal with interest as it raises the question
                                of when do you accept, or not, a record of a rare or stray
                                species. This can be important when you consider such things
                                as regional, provincial, national checklists and possible
                                protection mechanisms for species at risk. It will also
                                become more important as species continue to expand their
                                known ranges due to climate change. 
                                I am
                                aware of a number of noteworthy records in Ontario and
                                Quebec that were questionable at the time for a variety of
                                reasons and never really resolved. Some were sightings with
                                no validating specimen or photo. Some were the result of
                                possible mislabelling of specimens through error
                                or falsification. Some of these were accepted into the
                                literature and passed on in subsequent publications. Others
                                were dismissed and later proved to be true when subsequent
                                individuals of the species were found.
                                There
                                are obviously a number of factors that need to be
                                considered. These could include positive ID of a species,
                                number of people observing it, supporting specimens or
                                photos, habitat seen, distance from nearest known record,
                                weather conditions, possibility of
                                escapees.
                                The birding community has been dealing with all
                                such records through the establishment of rare bird record
                                committees at different levels (regional, provincial,
                                national, continental). Is it time the butterfly community
                                consider forming its own such committees. I know we have
                                peer review opportunities for follow up to important
                                sightings and we have vetting mechansims for electronic
                                databasing of observations. However, so does the birding
                                community. It would only be those very unusual and debatable
                                records that would be considered by a committee.This is how
                                the birding community handles it under established
                                guidelines.
                                These are my initial thoughts on this issue. Happy
                                to hear any comments or suggestions.
                                Cheers
                                Peter



                                From: "rick
                                cavasin rrrcav@... [butterfly_obs]"
                                <butterfly_obs@...>

                                To:
                                "butterfly_obs@..."
                                <butterfly_obs@...>
                                Sent:
                                Wednesday, August 30, 2017 2:09 AM
                                Subject:
                                Re: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)


                                 









                                Hi
                                All,
                                I was
                                in touch with Max today, I guess he hasn't been reading
                                the list because he had heard that the species was seen at
                                the Botanical Gardens, but wasn't aware that it had been
                                posted to the Ottawa list.
                                Max
                                says this is not a species they ever raise at the
                                Instectarium, and he strongly doubts that it could have come
                                in on any plants - he says that most ( all? ) of the plants
                                used at the Botanical Gardens are grown on
                                site.
                                He's of the
                                ( strong ) opinion that this is a legitimate
                                stray.
                                As Ross pointed
                                out, it has happened before in Ontario.  Who knows how
                                many times exotics like this pass through our area without
                                there being anyone around to notice.
                                Cheers, Rick


                                On 29 August 2017 at 19:41,
                                David Allison d_k_allison@...
                                [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...>
                                wrote:















                                 









                                Hi
                                Folks,
                                I
                                did consider the possibility of escape since it was so close
                                to the insectarium which we had just visited. I pointed it
                                out to a staff member who said that they don't usually
                                have any butterflies being raised or bred but when they do
                                it is only local ones such as Monarchs. Also they said they
                                didn't have any live butterflies at this time. Staff I
                                spoke to had never seen this one and it took a while to
                                convince them it was even in the skipper family. Another
                                lady came along shortly after us who had Rick's fold out
                                butterfly guide. When she saw it wasn't in that guide
                                she had a good camera and got lots of nice photos. Hopefully
                                she will post them or provide them to someone.
                                I didn't
                                think to ask about tropical plants but they certainly have
                                lots there although I don't know if they import them or
                                raise them in one of their greenhouses on site from seed or
                                previous year plants. Montreal obviously has a busy airport
                                and shipping terminal so there are lots of possible sources
                                in addition to an accidental stray.
                                Thanks,David



                                From: "'Jones,
                                Colin (MNRF)' colin.jones@...
                                [butterfly_obs]" <butterfly_obs@...>
                                To: "butterfly_obs@..."
                                <butterfly_obs@...>

                                Sent: Tuesday, August
                                29, 2017 10:00 AM
                                Subject: RE:
                                [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)

                                Hi all,

                                I just want to be clear
                                that I'm not saying that this individual couldn't be
                                a legitimate stray from the south. As Ross has pointed out
                                there are records from S Ontario and elsewhere in the
                                northeast.

                                What I'm suggesting is
                                that there is also a possibility that this individual has
                                escaped from one of two museums known to rear insects...both
                                of these facilities are immediately beside the Botanical
                                Gardens.

                                There is at least one
                                record of a Blue Morpho from the Niagara Gorge - it's
                                origin is surely from the Niagara Butterfly Conservatory so
                                we know that these things can and do escape.

                                I think that it is
                                important to look at all of the possibilities. If, for
                                example, either of these facilities does raise Long-tailed
                                Skipper, then I don't think that we could rule out the
                                possibility that this individual's origin is more likely
                                to have been an escape.

                                Also, as
                                Rick has mentioned, there doesn't seem to be any kind of
                                movement of this species northward this year which
                                doesn't completely rule out the possibility of this
                                being a stray but it does seem odd that one would show up
                                even further north (a new northernmost record?) with few to
                                no other records this year N of Tennessee/W Virginia.

                                Cheers,
                                Colin

                                ______________________________ __
                                From: butterfly_obs@...
                                [butterfly_obs@...]
                                Sent: Tuesday, August 29,
                                2017 9:19 AM
                                To: butterfly_obs@...
                                Subject: Re:
                                [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)



                                I think Colin was the one
                                who originally brought up the possibility of it being an
                                escapee.

                                The thought never really
                                crossed my mind.

                                On 29 August 2017 at
                                09:15, ross layberry rosslayberry@...<mailto:r
                                osslayberry@...> [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...<
                                mailto:butterfly_obs@
                                yahoogroups.ca>> wrote:


                                I am not sure why there is
                                so much doubt about this record. It has been reported four
                                times in Ontario, and in circumstances where it looks as if
                                a small migration occured. There were two records in 1994,
                                on August 7 at Point Pelee, and on August 18 at Ojibway
                                Prairie, Windsor. And there were two, both photographed, in
                                2012, on September 1 at Princess Point, Hamilton, and on
                                October 4 in High Park, Toronto. At least this last one can
                                be seen on eButterfly.

                                oss
                                ------------------------------ --------------
                                On Tue, 8/29/17, Gillian
                                Mastromatteo sedge.sprite@...<mailto:
                                sedge.sprite@...> [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...<
                                mailto:butterfly_obs@
                                yahoogroups.ca>> wrote:

                                Subject: Re:
                                [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)
                                To: "butterfly_obs@...<
                                mailto:butterfly_obs@
                                yahoogroups.ca>" <butterfly_obs@...<
                                mailto:butterfly_obs@
                                yahoogroups.ca>>
                                Received: Tuesday, August 29, 2017, 6:12 AM


                                #yiv6336530002
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                                Hi everyone,
                                If the biodome doesn't
                                have
                                these butterflies,
                                and if there has been no talk of anyone
                                seeing them between
                                Montreal and their breeding grounds,
                                could it be possible that
                                it came in as an egg on some
                                tropical plants brought in to the biodome? 
                                I'm not
                                sure if it
                                does still bring in foreign plants, but after
                                reading horror stories of
                                spiders and other insects coming
                                into the country on produce, why not an egg?
                                Cheers,
                                Gillian
                                On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at
                                10:13 PM, rick cavasin rrrcav@...<mailto:rrrcav
                                @...>
                                [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...<
                                mailto:butterfly_obs@
                                yahoogroups.ca>>
                                wrote:

























                                      I
                                doubt the biodome breeds this
                                species, but Max can confirm that.
                                There's not a whole
                                lot I can do
                                with these
                                photos - the resolution is too low.  It does
                                look like a Long Tailed
                                Skipper.  I hadn't heard that
                                the species was heading
                                North .  Usually there's talk
                                about this kind of thing
                                down in Maryland.
                                Cheers, Rick
                                On 28 August 2017 at 21:11,
                                'Jones, Colin
                                (MNRF)' colin.jones@...<mailto:
                                colin.jones@...>
                                [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...<
                                mailto:butterfly_obs@
                                yahoogroups.ca>>
                                wrote:
                                Hi
                                all,



                                Very interesting
                                record!



                                My first question would be
                                does either the Biodome or the
                                Montreal Insectarium raise Long-tailed Skippers?
                                If the
                                answer is yes,
                                then the origin of this individual is
                                suspect.



                                If the answer is no, then
                                it's more likley that this
                                individual is a stray from breeding grounds in the
                                south.



                                Cheers,

                                Colin

                                ______________________________ __________

                                From: butterfly_obs@...<
                                mailto:butterfly_obs@
                                yahoogroups.ca>
                                [butterfly_obs@...<
                                mailto:butterfly_obs@
                                yahoogroups.ca>]

                                Sent:
                                Monday, August 28, 2017 8:38 PM

                                To: butterfly_obs@...<
                                mailto:butterfly_obs@
                                yahoogroups.ca>

                                Subject: Re:
                                [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper?
                                (Montreal)



                                Hi, David,



                                I agree with your
                                identification. But I think that Rick
                                Cavasin will be able to
                                make the photos clearer. I am sure
                                that Max will be excited
                                about it, too, a first record for
                                Quebec. Perhaps you. or Rick, will be able to
                                submit it to
                                eButterfly, for Max.



                                Ross

                                ------------------------------ --------------

                                On Mon, 8/28/17, David
                                Allison d_k_allison@...<mailto:d_
                                k_allison@...>
                                [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...<
                                mailto:butterfly_obs@
                                yahoogroups.ca>>
                                wrote:



                                Subject: [butterfly_obs]
                                Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)

                                To:
                                "Ottawa Butterflies" <butterfly_obs@...<
                                mailto:butterfly_obs@
                                yahoogroups.ca>>

                                Received:
                                Monday, August 28, 2017, 7:51 PM















































                                Hi

                                Folks,

                                My wife and I took the
                                kids to the biodome in

                                Montreal
                                yesterday and stopped by the Botanical Gardens
                                this

                                morning to see the flowers
                                just before coming home. While
                                we

                                were there, in addition to
                                the usual butterfly suspects,
                                we

                                got some really good looks
                                at what I am fairly sure is a

                                Long-Tailed
                                Skipper. Sadly our camera had died so we had
                                to

                                try and get photos on our
                                ancient flip-phone.



                                Please see the
                                attached.

                                Thanks,David











































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                              • Jones, Colin (MNRF)
                                Hi Peter, I wholeheartedly agree with you that a committee approach to reviewing records of exceptional rarities is an excellent idea and one that is long
                                Message 15 of 23 , Aug 31
                                  Hi Peter,



                                  I wholeheartedly agree with you that a committee approach to reviewing records of exceptional rarities is an excellent idea and one that is long overdue in Ontario. I've been suggesting to the TEA for well over a decade that it would be very worthwhile to set one up.



                                  All the best,

                                  Colin



                                  ________________________________

                                  From: butterfly_obs@... [butterfly_obs@...]
                                  Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2017 3:26 PM
                                  To: butterfly_obs@...
                                  Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)



                                  Hi folks:

                                  I have been following this string of e-mails on the L-t Skipper in Montreal with interest as it raises the question of when do you accept, or not, a record of a rare or stray species. This can be important when you consider such things as regional, provincial, national checklists and possible protection mechanisms for species at risk. It will also become more important as species continue to expand their known ranges due to climate change.

                                  I am aware of a number of noteworthy records in Ontario and Quebec that were questionable at the time for a variety of reasons and never really resolved. Some were sightings with no validating specimen or photo. Some were the result of possible mislabelling of specimens through error or falsification. Some of these were accepted into the literature and passed on in subsequent publications. Others were dismissed and later proved to be true when subsequent individuals of the species were found.

                                  There are obviously a number of factors that need to be considered. These could include positive ID of a species, number of people observing it, supporting specimens or photos, habitat seen, distance from nearest known record, weather conditions, possibility of escapees.

                                  The birding community has been dealing with all such records through the establishment of rare bird record committees at different levels (regional, provincial, national, continental). Is it time the butterfly community consider forming its own such committees. I know we have peer review opportunities for follow up to important sightings and we have vetting mechansims for electronic databasing of observations. However, so does the birding community. It would only be those very unusual and debatable records that would be considered by a committee.This is how the birding community handles it under established guidelines.

                                  These are my initial thoughts on this issue. Happy to hear any comments or suggestions.

                                  Cheers

                                  Peter


                                  ________________________________
                                  From: "rick cavasin rrrcav@... [butterfly_obs]" <butterfly_obs@...>
                                  To: "butterfly_obs@..." <butterfly_obs@...>
                                  Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2017 2:09 AM
                                  Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)


                                  Hi All,

                                  I was in touch with Max today, I guess he hasn't been reading the list because he had heard that the species was seen at the Botanical Gardens, but wasn't aware that it had been posted to the Ottawa list.

                                  Max says this is not a species they ever raise at the Instectarium, and he strongly doubts that it could have come in on any plants - he says that most ( all? ) of the plants used at the Botanical Gardens are grown on site.

                                  He's of the ( strong ) opinion that this is a legitimate stray.

                                  As Ross pointed out, it has happened before in Ontario. Who knows how many times exotics like this pass through our area without there being anyone around to notice.

                                  Cheers, Rick



                                  On 29 August 2017 at 19:41, David Allison d_k_allison@...<mailto:d_k_allison@...> [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>> wrote:

                                  Hi Folks,

                                  I did consider the possibility of escape since it was so close to the insectarium which we had just visited. I pointed it out to a staff member who said that they don't usually have any butterflies being raised or bred but when they do it is only local ones such as Monarchs. Also they said they didn't have any live butterflies at this time. Staff I spoke to had never seen this one and it took a while to convince them it was even in the skipper family. Another lady came along shortly after us who had Rick's fold out butterfly guide. When she saw it wasn't in that guide she had a good camera and got lots of nice photos. Hopefully she will post them or provide them to someone.

                                  I didn't think to ask about tropical plants but they certainly have lots there although I don't know if they import them or raise them in one of their greenhouses on site from seed or previous year plants. Montreal obviously has a busy airport and shipping terminal so there are lots of possible sources in addition to an accidental stray.

                                  Thanks,
                                  David

                                  ________________________________
                                  From: "'Jones, Colin (MNRF)' colin.jones@...<mailto:colin.jones@...> [butterfly_obs]" <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>
                                  To: "butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>" <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>
                                  Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2017 10:00 AM
                                  Subject: RE: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)

                                  Hi all,

                                  I just want to be clear that I'm not saying that this individual couldn't be a legitimate stray from the south. As Ross has pointed out there are records from S Ontario and elsewhere in the northeast.

                                  What I'm suggesting is that there is also a possibility that this individual has escaped from one of two museums known to rear insects...both of these facilities are immediately beside the Botanical Gardens.

                                  There is at least one record of a Blue Morpho from the Niagara Gorge - it's origin is surely from the Niagara Butterfly Conservatory so we know that these things can and do escape.

                                  I think that it is important to look at all of the possibilities. If, for example, either of these facilities does raise Long-tailed Skipper, then I don't think that we could rule out the possibility that this individual's origin is more likely to have been an escape.

                                  Also, as Rick has mentioned, there doesn't seem to be any kind of movement of this species northward this year which doesn't completely rule out the possibility of this being a stray but it does seem odd that one would show up even further north (a new northernmost record?) with few to no other records this year N of Tennessee/W Virginia.

                                  Cheers,
                                  Colin

                                  ______________________________ __
                                  From: butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...> [butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>]
                                  Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2017 9:19 AM
                                  To: butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>
                                  Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)



                                  I think Colin was the one who originally brought up the possibility of it being an escapee.

                                  The thought never really crossed my mind.

                                  On 29 August 2017 at 09:15, ross layberry rosslayberry@...<mailto:rosslayberry@...><mailto:r osslayberry@...<mailto:rosslayberry@...>> [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>< mailto:butterfly_obs@ yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>> wrote:


                                  I am not sure why there is so much doubt about this record. It has been reported four times in Ontario, and in circumstances where it looks as if a small migration occured. There were two records in 1994, on August 7 at Point Pelee, and on August 18 at Ojibway Prairie, Windsor. And there were two, both photographed, in 2012, on September 1 at Princess Point, Hamilton, and on October 4 in High Park, Toronto. At least this last one can be seen on eButterfly.

                                  oss
                                  ------------------------------ --------------
                                  On Tue, 8/29/17, Gillian Mastromatteo sedge.sprite@...<mailto:sedge.sprite@...><mailto: sedge.sprite@...<mailto:sedge.sprite@...>> [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>< mailto:butterfly_obs@ yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>> wrote:

                                  Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)
                                  To: "butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>< mailto:butterfly_obs@ yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>" <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>< mailto:butterfly_obs@ yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>>
                                  Received: Tuesday, August 29, 2017, 6:12 AM


                                  #yiv6336530002 #yiv6336530002 --


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                                  Hi everyone,
                                  If the biodome doesn't have
                                  these butterflies, and if there has been no talk of anyone
                                  seeing them between Montreal and their breeding grounds,
                                  could it be possible that it came in as an egg on some
                                  tropical plants brought in to the biodome? I'm not
                                  sure if it does still bring in foreign plants, but after
                                  reading horror stories of spiders and other insects coming
                                  into the country on produce, why not an egg?
                                  Cheers,
                                  Gillian
                                  On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at
                                  10:13 PM, rick cavasin rrrcav@...<mailto:rrrcav@...><mailto:rrrcav @...<mailto:rrrcav@...>>
                                  [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>< mailto:butterfly_obs@ yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>>
                                  wrote:

























                                  I doubt the biodome breeds this
                                  species, but Max can confirm that.
                                  There's not a whole lot I can do
                                  with these photos - the resolution is too low. It does
                                  look like a Long Tailed Skipper. I hadn't heard that
                                  the species was heading North . Usually there's talk
                                  about this kind of thing down in Maryland.
                                  Cheers, Rick
                                  On 28 August 2017 at 21:11,
                                  'Jones, Colin (MNRF)' colin.jones@...<mailto:colin.jones@...><mailto: colin.jones@...<mailto:colin.jones@...>>
                                  [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>< mailto:butterfly_obs@ yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>>
                                  wrote:
                                  Hi all,



                                  Very interesting record!



                                  My first question would be does either the Biodome or the
                                  Montreal Insectarium raise Long-tailed Skippers? If the
                                  answer is yes, then the origin of this individual is
                                  suspect.



                                  If the answer is no, then it's more likley that this
                                  individual is a stray from breeding grounds in the south.



                                  Cheers,

                                  Colin

                                  ______________________________ __________

                                  From: butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>< mailto:butterfly_obs@ yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>
                                  [butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>< mailto:butterfly_obs@ yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>]

                                  Sent: Monday, August 28, 2017 8:38 PM

                                  To: butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>< mailto:butterfly_obs@ yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>

                                  Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper?
                                  (Montreal)



                                  Hi, David,



                                  I agree with your identification. But I think that Rick
                                  Cavasin will be able to make the photos clearer. I am sure
                                  that Max will be excited about it, too, a first record for
                                  Quebec. Perhaps you. or Rick, will be able to submit it to
                                  eButterfly, for Max.



                                  Ross

                                  ------------------------------ --------------

                                  On Mon, 8/28/17, David Allison d_k_allison@...<mailto:d_k_allison@...><mailto:d_ k_allison@...<mailto:d_k_allison@...>>
                                  [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>< mailto:butterfly_obs@ yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>>
                                  wrote:



                                  Subject: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)

                                  To: "Ottawa Butterflies" <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>< mailto:butterfly_obs@ yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>>

                                  Received: Monday, August 28, 2017, 7:51 PM















































                                  Hi

                                  Folks,

                                  My wife and I took the kids to the biodome in

                                  Montreal yesterday and stopped by the Botanical Gardens
                                  this

                                  morning to see the flowers just before coming home. While
                                  we

                                  were there, in addition to the usual butterfly suspects,
                                  we

                                  got some really good looks at what I am fairly sure is a

                                  Long-Tailed Skipper. Sadly our camera had died so we had
                                  to

                                  try and get photos on our ancient flip-phone.



                                  Please see the attached.

                                  Thanks,David











































                                  ------------------------------ ------



                                  ------------------------------ ------





                                  ------------------------------ ------



                                  Yahoo Groups Links



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                                  up/butterfly_obs/



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                                  ------------------------------ ------

                                  ------------------------------ ------


                                  ------------------------------ ------

                                  Yahoo Groups Links
                                • ross layberry
                                  Hi, Colin, Peter, I do not see any problems that we are having right now. The one possibly endangered species in Ontario, the Mottled Duskywing, has been
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Aug 31
                                    Hi, Colin, Peter,

                                    I do not see any problems that we are having right now. The one possibly "endangered" species in Ontario, the Mottled Duskywing, has been protected as well as is possible, by informal discussion and agreements between all interested parties. I do not agree that another layer of bureaucracy is needed to "impose on" such interested parties. I can see that Peter and Colin are likely to feel differently: Peter worked for the federal government all his life and Colin does the same today with the provincial government. But I don't think that their opinions are typical among butterfly enthusiasts; we do not need, nor want, to be imposed upon.

                                    I think we should stick with the old adage: if it ain't broke, don't fix it!

                                    Ross
                                    --------------------------------------------
                                    On Thu, 8/31/17, 'Jones, Colin (MNRF)' colin.jones@... [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...> wrote:

                                    Subject: RE: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)
                                    To: "butterfly_obs@..." <butterfly_obs@...>
                                    Received: Thursday, August 31, 2017, 12:27 PM

                                    Hi Peter,



                                    I wholeheartedly agree with you that a
                                    committee approach to reviewing records of exceptional
                                    rarities is an excellent idea and one that is long overdue
                                    in Ontario. I've been suggesting to the TEA for well over a
                                    decade that it would be very worthwhile to set one up.



                                    All the best,

                                    Colin



                                    ________________________________

                                    From: butterfly_obs@...
                                    [butterfly_obs@...]
                                    Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2017 3:26
                                    PM
                                    To: butterfly_obs@...
                                    Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs]
                                    Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)



                                    Hi folks:

                                    I have been following this string of
                                    e-mails on the L-t Skipper in Montreal with interest as it
                                    raises the question of when do you accept, or not, a record
                                    of a rare or stray species. This can be important when you
                                    consider such things as regional, provincial, national
                                    checklists and possible protection mechanisms for species at
                                    risk. It will also become more important as species continue
                                    to expand their known ranges due to climate change.

                                    I am aware of a number of noteworthy
                                    records in Ontario and Quebec that were questionable at the
                                    time for a variety of reasons and never really resolved.
                                    Some were sightings with no validating specimen or photo.
                                    Some were the result of possible mislabelling of specimens
                                    through error or falsification. Some of these were accepted
                                    into the literature and passed on in subsequent
                                    publications. Others were dismissed and later proved to be
                                    true when subsequent individuals of the species were found.

                                    There are obviously a number of factors
                                    that need to be considered. These could include positive ID
                                    of a species, number of people observing it, supporting
                                    specimens or photos, habitat seen, distance from nearest
                                    known record, weather conditions, possibility of escapees.

                                    The birding community has been dealing
                                    with all such records through the establishment of rare bird
                                    record committees at different levels (regional, provincial,
                                    national, continental). Is it time the butterfly community
                                    consider forming its own such committees. I know we have
                                    peer review opportunities for follow up to important
                                    sightings and we have vetting mechansims for electronic
                                    databasing of observations. However, so does the birding
                                    community. It would only be those very unusual and debatable
                                    records that would be considered by a committee.This is how
                                    the birding community handles it under established
                                    guidelines.

                                    These are my initial thoughts on this
                                    issue. Happy to hear any comments or suggestions.

                                    Cheers

                                    Peter


                                    ________________________________
                                    From: "rick cavasin rrrcav@...
                                    [butterfly_obs]" <butterfly_obs@...>
                                    To: "butterfly_obs@..."
                                    <butterfly_obs@...>
                                    Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2017 2:09
                                    AM
                                    Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs]
                                    Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)


                                    Hi All,

                                    I was in touch with Max today, I guess
                                    he hasn't been reading the list because he had heard that
                                    the species was seen at the Botanical Gardens, but wasn't
                                    aware that it had been posted to the Ottawa list.

                                    Max says this is not a species they
                                    ever raise at the Instectarium, and he strongly doubts that
                                    it could have come in on any plants - he says that most (
                                    all? ) of the plants used at the Botanical Gardens are grown
                                    on site.

                                    He's of the ( strong ) opinion that
                                    this is a legitimate stray.

                                    As Ross pointed out, it has happened
                                    before in Ontario.  Who knows how many times exotics
                                    like this pass through our area without there being anyone
                                    around to notice.

                                    Cheers, Rick



                                    On 29 August 2017 at 19:41, David
                                    Allison d_k_allison@...<mailto:d_k_allison@...>
                                    [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>
                                    wrote:

                                    Hi Folks,

                                    I did consider the possibility of
                                    escape since it was so close to the insectarium which we had
                                    just visited. I pointed it out to a staff member who said
                                    that they don't usually have any butterflies being raised or
                                    bred but when they do it is only local ones such as
                                    Monarchs. Also they said they didn't have any live
                                    butterflies at this time. Staff I spoke to had never seen
                                    this one and it took a while to convince them it was even in
                                    the skipper family. Another lady came along shortly after us
                                    who had Rick's fold out butterfly guide. When she saw it
                                    wasn't in that guide she had a good camera and got lots of
                                    nice photos. Hopefully she will post them or provide them to
                                    someone.

                                    I didn't think to ask about tropical
                                    plants but they certainly have lots there although I don't
                                    know if they import them or raise them in one of their
                                    greenhouses on site from seed or previous year plants.
                                    Montreal obviously has a busy airport and shipping terminal
                                    so there are lots of possible sources in addition to an
                                    accidental stray.

                                    Thanks,
                                    David

                                    ________________________________
                                    From: "'Jones, Colin (MNRF)' colin.jones@...<mailto:colin.jones@...>
                                    [butterfly_obs]" <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>
                                    To: "butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>"
                                    <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>
                                    Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2017 10:00
                                    AM
                                    Subject: RE: [butterfly_obs]
                                    Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)

                                    Hi all,

                                    I just want to be clear that I'm not
                                    saying that this individual couldn't be a legitimate stray
                                    from the south. As Ross has pointed out there are records
                                    from S Ontario and elsewhere in the northeast.

                                    What I'm suggesting is that there is
                                    also a possibility that this individual has escaped from one
                                    of two museums known to rear insects...both of these
                                    facilities are immediately beside the Botanical Gardens.

                                    There is at least one record of a Blue
                                    Morpho from the Niagara Gorge - it's origin is surely from
                                    the Niagara Butterfly Conservatory so we know that these
                                    things can and do escape.

                                    I think that it is important to look at
                                    all of the possibilities. If, for example, either of these
                                    facilities does raise Long-tailed Skipper, then I don't
                                    think that we could rule out the possibility that this
                                    individual's origin is more likely to have been an escape.

                                    Also, as Rick has mentioned, there
                                    doesn't seem to be any kind of movement of this species
                                    northward this year which doesn't completely rule out the
                                    possibility of this being a stray but it does seem odd that
                                    one would show up even further north (a new northernmost
                                    record?) with few to no other records this year N of
                                    Tennessee/W Virginia.

                                    Cheers,
                                    Colin

                                    ______________________________ __
                                    From: butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>
                                    [butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>]
                                    Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2017 9:19 AM
                                    To: butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>
                                    Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs]
                                    Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)



                                    I think Colin was the one who
                                    originally brought up the possibility of it being an
                                    escapee.

                                    The thought never really crossed my
                                    mind.

                                    On 29 August 2017 at 09:15, ross
                                    layberry rosslayberry@...<mailto:rosslayberry@...><mailto:r
                                    osslayberry@...<mailto:rosslayberry@...>>
                                    [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><
                                    mailto:butterfly_obs@ yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>>
                                    wrote:


                                    I am not sure why there is so much
                                    doubt about this record. It has been reported four times in
                                    Ontario, and in circumstances where it looks as if a small
                                    migration occured. There were two records in 1994, on August
                                    7 at Point Pelee, and on August 18 at Ojibway Prairie,
                                    Windsor. And there were two, both photographed, in 2012, on
                                    September 1 at Princess Point, Hamilton, and on October 4 in
                                    High Park, Toronto. At least this last one can be seen on
                                    eButterfly.

                                    oss
                                    ------------------------------
                                    --------------
                                    On Tue, 8/29/17, Gillian Mastromatteo
                                    sedge.sprite@...<mailto:sedge.sprite@...><mailto:
                                    sedge.sprite@...<mailto:sedge.sprite@...>>
                                    [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><
                                    mailto:butterfly_obs@ yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>>
                                    wrote:

                                    Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs]
                                    Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)
                                    To: "butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><
                                    mailto:butterfly_obs@ yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>"
                                    <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><
                                    mailto:butterfly_obs@ yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>>
                                    Received: Tuesday, August 29, 2017,
                                    6:12 AM


                                    #yiv6336530002 #yiv6336530002 --


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                                    Hi everyone,
                                    If the biodome doesn't have
                                    these butterflies, and if there has
                                    been no talk of anyone
                                    seeing them between Montreal and their
                                    breeding grounds,
                                    could it be possible that it came in as
                                    an egg on some
                                    tropical plants brought in to the
                                    biodome?  I'm not
                                    sure if it does still bring in foreign
                                    plants, but after
                                    reading horror stories of spiders and
                                    other insects coming
                                    into the country on produce, why not an
                                    egg?
                                    Cheers,
                                    Gillian
                                    On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at
                                    10:13 PM, rick cavasin rrrcav@...<mailto:rrrcav@...><mailto:rrrcav
                                    @...<mailto:rrrcav@...>>
                                    [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><
                                    mailto:butterfly_obs@ yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>>
                                    wrote:

























                                          I doubt the
                                    biodome breeds this
                                    species, but Max can confirm that.
                                    There's not a whole lot I can do
                                    with these photos - the resolution is
                                    too low.  It does
                                    look like a Long Tailed Skipper. 
                                    I hadn't heard that
                                    the species was heading North . 
                                    Usually there's talk
                                    about this kind of thing down in
                                    Maryland.
                                    Cheers, Rick
                                    On 28 August 2017 at 21:11,
                                    'Jones, Colin (MNRF)' colin.jones@...<mailto:colin.jones@...><mailto:
                                    colin.jones@...<mailto:colin.jones@...>>
                                    [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><
                                    mailto:butterfly_obs@ yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>>
                                    wrote:
                                    Hi all,



                                    Very interesting record!



                                    My first question would be does either
                                    the Biodome or the
                                    Montreal Insectarium raise Long-tailed
                                    Skippers? If the
                                    answer is yes, then the origin of this
                                    individual is
                                    suspect.



                                    If the answer is no, then it's more
                                    likley that this
                                    individual is a stray from breeding
                                    grounds in the south.



                                    Cheers,

                                    Colin

                                    ______________________________
                                    __________

                                    From: butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><
                                    mailto:butterfly_obs@ yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>
                                    [butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><
                                    mailto:butterfly_obs@ yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>]

                                    Sent: Monday, August 28, 2017 8:38 PM

                                    To: butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><
                                    mailto:butterfly_obs@ yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>

                                    Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs]
                                    Long-Tailed Skipper?
                                    (Montreal)



                                    Hi, David,



                                    I agree with your identification. But I
                                    think that Rick
                                    Cavasin will be able to make the photos
                                    clearer. I am sure
                                    that Max will be excited about it, too,
                                    a first record for
                                    Quebec. Perhaps you. or Rick, will be
                                    able to submit it to
                                    eButterfly, for Max.



                                    Ross

                                    ------------------------------
                                    --------------

                                    On Mon, 8/28/17, David Allison d_k_allison@...<mailto:d_k_allison@...><mailto:d_
                                    k_allison@...<mailto:d_k_allison@...>>
                                    [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><
                                    mailto:butterfly_obs@ yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>>
                                    wrote:



                                    Subject: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed
                                    Skipper? (Montreal)

                                    To: "Ottawa Butterflies" <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><
                                    mailto:butterfly_obs@ yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>>

                                    Received: Monday, August 28, 2017, 7:51
                                    PM















































                                    Hi

                                    Folks,

                                    My wife and I took the kids to the
                                    biodome in

                                    Montreal yesterday and stopped by the
                                    Botanical Gardens
                                    this

                                    morning to see the flowers just before
                                    coming home. While
                                    we

                                    were there, in addition to the usual
                                    butterfly suspects,
                                    we

                                    got some really good looks at what I am
                                    fairly sure is a

                                    Long-Tailed Skipper. Sadly our camera
                                    had died so we had
                                    to

                                    try and get photos on our ancient
                                    flip-phone.



                                    Please see the attached.

                                    Thanks,David











































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                                        butterfly_obs-fullfeatured@...
                                  • Judy and Peter Hall
                                    Hi Ross: I certainly did not intend for my suggestion of rare butterfly records committees to become controversial. I welcome all opinions. I only suggested it
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Aug 31
                                      Hi Ross:

                                      I certainly did not intend for my suggestion of rare butterfly records committees to become controversial. I welcome all opinions. I only suggested it as I was reminded that there are a number of Ontario butterfly records that appear to me to still be 'outstanding'.

                                      You say you don't see any problems. As you put it, 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it' But I personally still have a number of issues with supposed Ontario records that would be firsts for the province. Off the top of my head I would list:

                                      Florida Duskywing from a specimen record found at the Carnegie Museum in Pittsburg that is labelled Hamilton, Ontario, 1877. This is a species that is found only in extreme southern Florida and is not known to wander:

                                      Lyside Sulphur from a dead specimen found on the grounds at the University of Guelph in 2011. It was presumed to be a stray  but why couldn't it have fallen off a vehicle that had driven from the southern US where it is resident:

                                      Ceraunus Blue from a specimen reported to be taken at the Schreck Nature Reserve north of Kingston by a group from Guelph:

                                      European Peacock photographed in a backyard down near London in May 2014. Could be a stray from Quebec but was it checked if anybody had reared them in the area:

                                      Diana Fritillary reported to BAMONA from a sighting in 2011 in SW Ontario but with no photo or specimen to verify.

                                      All of these records would be important additions to the Ontario butterfly fauna. I am not offering them up for further discussion now but to illustrate what I see as a problem. It would have been very useful if they had been written up and carefully studied and all supporting documentation gathered.

                                      Every time such sightings (often with no photos) are reported into the birding community, the observer (or discoverer for old records) is asked to file a full description of the sighting with diagnostic features noted and all contextual materials submitted (photos if available, weather conditions, habitats seen, possibilities of escapees, etc.). This then becomes a permanent record of the sighting for future reference.

                                      At present, as far as I know, such butterfly sightings are often skimpily reported and then it is up to individuals later to decide if they want to believe them or not. I am guilty of that myself in the writing of the butterflies of Canada and the Ontario field guide but we are offered no alternative in making our decisions in what to include.

                                      By the way, I am not suggesting a bureaucracy. This could all be handled by a committee of volunteers using the internet and only as required with new reports of unusual butterflies.

                                      Anyway, I still think its a good idea even if all don't agree.

                                      Cheers

                                      Peter



                                      From: "ross layberry rosslayberry@... [butterfly_obs]" <butterfly_obs@...>
                                      To: butterfly_obs@...
                                      Cc: alan macnaughton <amacnaug@...>; Glenn Richardson <glennr@...>
                                      Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2017 1:27 PM
                                      Subject: RE: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)

                                       
                                      Hi, Colin, Peter,

                                      I do not see any problems that we are having right now. The one possibly "endangered" species in Ontario, the Mottled Duskywing, has been protected as well as is possible, by informal discussion and agreements between all interested parties. I do not agree that another layer of bureaucracy is needed to "impose on" such interested parties. I can see that Peter and Colin are likely to feel differently: Peter worked for the federal government all his life and Colin does the same today with the provincial government. But I don't think that their opinions are typical among butterfly enthusiasts; we do not need, nor want, to be imposed upon.

                                      I think we should stick with the old adage: if it ain't broke, don't fix it!

                                      Ross
                                      --------------------------------------------
                                      On Thu, 8/31/17, 'Jones, Colin (MNRF)' colin.jones@... [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...> wrote:

                                      Subject: RE: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)
                                      To: "butterfly_obs@..." <butterfly_obs@...>
                                      Received: Thursday, August 31, 2017, 12:27 PM

                                      Hi Peter,



                                      I wholeheartedly agree with you that a
                                      committee approach to reviewing records of exceptional
                                      rarities is an excellent idea and one that is long overdue
                                      in Ontario. I've been suggesting to the TEA for well over a
                                      decade that it would be very worthwhile to set one up.



                                      All the best,

                                      Colin



                                      ________________________________

                                      From: butterfly_obs@...
                                      [butterfly_obs@...]
                                      Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2017 3:26
                                      PM
                                      To: butterfly_obs@...
                                      Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs]
                                      Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)



                                      Hi folks:

                                      I have been following this string of
                                      e-mails on the L-t Skipper in Montreal with interest as it
                                      raises the question of when do you accept, or not, a record
                                      of a rare or stray species. This can be important when you
                                      consider such things as regional, provincial, national
                                      checklists and possible protection mechanisms for species at
                                      risk. It will also become more important as species continue
                                      to expand their known ranges due to climate change.

                                      I am aware of a number of noteworthy
                                      records in Ontario and Quebec that were questionable at the
                                      time for a variety of reasons and never really resolved.
                                      Some were sightings with no validating specimen or photo.
                                      Some were the result of possible mislabelling of specimens
                                      through error or falsification. Some of these were accepted
                                      into the literature and passed on in subsequent
                                      publications. Others were dismissed and later proved to be
                                      true when subsequent individuals of the species were found.

                                      There are obviously a number of factors
                                      that need to be considered. These could include positive ID
                                      of a species, number of people observing it, supporting
                                      specimens or photos, habitat seen, distance from nearest
                                      known record, weather conditions, possibility of escapees.

                                      The birding community has been dealing
                                      with all such records through the establishment of rare bird
                                      record committees at different levels (regional, provincial,
                                      national, continental). Is it time the butterfly community
                                      consider forming its own such committees. I know we have
                                      peer review opportunities for follow up to important
                                      sightings and we have vetting mechansims for electronic
                                      databasing of observations. However, so does the birding
                                      community. It would only be those very unusual and debatable
                                      records that would be considered by a committee.This is how
                                      the birding community handles it under established
                                      guidelines.

                                      These are my initial thoughts on this
                                      issue. Happy to hear any comments or suggestions.

                                      Cheers

                                      Peter


                                      ________________________________
                                      From: "rick cavasin rrrcav@...
                                      [butterfly_obs]" <butterfly_obs@...>
                                      To: "butterfly_obs@..."
                                      <butterfly_obs@...>
                                      Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2017 2:09
                                      AM
                                      Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs]
                                      Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)


                                      Hi All,

                                      I was in touch with Max today, I guess
                                      he hasn't been reading the list because he had heard that
                                      the species was seen at the Botanical Gardens, but wasn't
                                      aware that it had been posted to the Ottawa list.

                                      Max says this is not a species they
                                      ever raise at the Instectarium, and he strongly doubts that
                                      it could have come in on any plants - he says that most (
                                      all? ) of the plants used at the Botanical Gardens are grown
                                      on site.

                                      He's of the ( strong ) opinion that
                                      this is a legitimate stray.

                                      As Ross pointed out, it has happened
                                      before in Ontario.  Who knows how many times exotics
                                      like this pass through our area without there being anyone
                                      around to notice.

                                      Cheers, Rick



                                      On 29 August 2017 at 19:41, David
                                      Allison d_k_allison@...<mailto:d_k_allison@...>
                                      [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>
                                      wrote:

                                      Hi Folks,

                                      I did consider the possibility of
                                      escape since it was so close to the insectarium which we had
                                      just visited. I pointed it out to a staff member who said
                                      that they don't usually have any butterflies being raised or
                                      bred but when they do it is only local ones such as
                                      Monarchs. Also they said they didn't have any live
                                      butterflies at this time. Staff I spoke to had never seen
                                      this one and it took a while to convince them it was even in
                                      the skipper family. Another lady came along shortly after us
                                      who had Rick's fold out butterfly guide. When she saw it
                                      wasn't in that guide she had a good camera and got lots of
                                      nice photos. Hopefully she will post them or provide them to
                                      someone.

                                      I didn't think to ask about tropical
                                      plants but they certainly have lots there although I don't
                                      know if they import them or raise them in one of their
                                      greenhouses on site from seed or previous year plants.
                                      Montreal obviously has a busy airport and shipping terminal
                                      so there are lots of possible sources in addition to an
                                      accidental stray.

                                      Thanks,
                                      David

                                      ________________________________
                                      From: "'Jones, Colin (MNRF)' colin.jones@...<mailto:colin.jones@...>
                                      [butterfly_obs]" <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>
                                      To: "butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>"
                                      <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>
                                      Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2017 10:00
                                      AM
                                      Subject: RE: [butterfly_obs]
                                      Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)

                                      Hi all,

                                      I just want to be clear that I'm not
                                      saying that this individual couldn't be a legitimate stray
                                      from the south. As Ross has pointed out there are records
                                      from S Ontario and elsewhere in the northeast.

                                      What I'm suggesting is that there is
                                      also a possibility that this individual has escaped from one
                                      of two museums known to rear insects...both of these
                                      facilities are immediately beside the Botanical Gardens.

                                      There is at least one record of a Blue
                                      Morpho from the Niagara Gorge - it's origin is surely from
                                      the Niagara Butterfly Conservatory so we know that these
                                      things can and do escape.

                                      I think that it is important to look at
                                      all of the possibilities. If, for example, either of these
                                      facilities does raise Long-tailed Skipper, then I don't
                                      think that we could rule out the possibility that this
                                      individual's origin is more likely to have been an escape.

                                      Also, as Rick has mentioned, there
                                      doesn't seem to be any kind of movement of this species
                                      northward this year which doesn't completely rule out the
                                      possibility of this being a stray but it does seem odd that
                                      one would show up even further north (a new northernmost
                                      record?) with few to no other records this year N of
                                      Tennessee/W Virginia.

                                      Cheers,
                                      Colin

                                      ______________________________ __
                                      From: butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>
                                      [butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>]
                                      Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2017 9:19 AM
                                      To: butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>
                                      Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs]
                                      Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)



                                      I think Colin was the one who
                                      originally brought up the possibility of it being an
                                      escapee.

                                      The thought never really crossed my
                                      mind.

                                      On 29 August 2017 at 09:15, ross
                                      layberry rosslayberry@...<mailto:rosslayberry@...><mailto:r
                                      osslayberry@...<mailto:rosslayberry@...>>
                                      [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><
                                      mailto:butterfly_obs@ yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>>
                                      wrote:


                                      I am not sure why there is so much
                                      doubt about this record. It has been reported four times in
                                      Ontario, and in circumstances where it looks as if a small
                                      migration occured. There were two records in 1994, on August
                                      7 at Point Pelee, and on August 18 at Ojibway Prairie,
                                      Windsor. And there were two, both photographed, in 2012, on
                                      September 1 at Princess Point, Hamilton, and on October 4 in
                                      High Park, Toronto. At least this last one can be seen on
                                      eButterfly.

                                      oss
                                      ------------------------------
                                      --------------
                                      On Tue, 8/29/17, Gillian Mastromatteo
                                      sedge.sprite@...<mailto:sedge.sprite@...><mailto:
                                      sedge.sprite@...<mailto:sedge.sprite@...>>
                                      [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><
                                      mailto:butterfly_obs@ yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>>
                                      wrote:

                                      Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs]
                                      Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)
                                      To: "butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><
                                      mailto:butterfly_obs@ yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>"
                                      <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><
                                      mailto:butterfly_obs@ yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>>
                                      Received: Tuesday, August 29, 2017,
                                      6:12 AM


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                                      Hi everyone,
                                      If the biodome doesn't have
                                      these butterflies, and if there has
                                      been no talk of anyone
                                      seeing them between Montreal and their
                                      breeding grounds,
                                      could it be possible that it came in as
                                      an egg on some
                                      tropical plants brought in to the
                                      biodome?  I'm not
                                      sure if it does still bring in foreign
                                      plants, but after
                                      reading horror stories of spiders and
                                      other insects coming
                                      into the country on produce, why not an
                                      egg?
                                      Cheers,
                                      Gillian
                                      On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at
                                      10:13 PM, rick cavasin rrrcav@...<mailto:rrrcav@...><mailto:rrrcav
                                      @...<mailto:rrrcav@...>>
                                      [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><
                                      mailto:butterfly_obs@ yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>>
                                      wrote:

























                                            I doubt the
                                      biodome breeds this
                                      species, but Max can confirm that.
                                      There's not a whole lot I can do
                                      with these photos - the resolution is
                                      too low.  It does
                                      look like a Long Tailed Skipper. 
                                      I hadn't heard that
                                      the species was heading North . 
                                      Usually there's talk
                                      about this kind of thing down in
                                      Maryland.
                                      Cheers, Rick
                                      On 28 August 2017 at 21:11,
                                      'Jones, Colin (MNRF)' colin.jones@...<mailto:colin.jones@...><mailto:
                                      colin.jones@...<mailto:colin.jones@...>>
                                      [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><
                                      mailto:butterfly_obs@ yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>>
                                      wrote:
                                      Hi all,



                                      Very interesting record!



                                      My first question would be does either
                                      the Biodome or the
                                      Montreal Insectarium raise Long-tailed
                                      Skippers? If the
                                      answer is yes, then the origin of this
                                      individual is
                                      suspect.



                                      If the answer is no, then it's more
                                      likley that this
                                      individual is a stray from breeding
                                      grounds in the south.



                                      Cheers,

                                      Colin

                                      ______________________________
                                      __________

                                      From: butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><
                                      mailto:butterfly_obs@ yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>
                                      [butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><
                                      mailto:butterfly_obs@ yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>]

                                      Sent: Monday, August 28, 2017 8:38 PM

                                      To: butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><
                                      mailto:butterfly_obs@ yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>

                                      Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs]
                                      Long-Tailed Skipper?
                                      (Montreal)



                                      Hi, David,



                                      I agree with your identification. But I
                                      think that Rick
                                      Cavasin will be able to make the photos
                                      clearer. I am sure
                                      that Max will be excited about it, too,
                                      a first record for
                                      Quebec. Perhaps you. or Rick, will be
                                      able to submit it to
                                      eButterfly, for Max.



                                      Ross

                                      ------------------------------
                                      --------------

                                      On Mon, 8/28/17, David Allison d_k_allison@...<mailto:d_k_allison@...><mailto:d_
                                      k_allison@...<mailto:d_k_allison@...>>
                                      [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><
                                      mailto:butterfly_obs@ yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>>
                                      wrote:



                                      Subject: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed
                                      Skipper? (Montreal)

                                      To: "Ottawa Butterflies" <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><
                                      mailto:butterfly_obs@ yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>>

                                      Received: Monday, August 28, 2017, 7:51
                                      PM















































                                      Hi

                                      Folks,

                                      My wife and I took the kids to the
                                      biodome in

                                      Montreal yesterday and stopped by the
                                      Botanical Gardens
                                      this

                                      morning to see the flowers just before
                                      coming home. While
                                      we

                                      were there, in addition to the usual
                                      butterfly suspects,
                                      we

                                      got some really good looks at what I am
                                      fairly sure is a

                                      Long-Tailed Skipper. Sadly our camera
                                      had died so we had
                                      to

                                      try and get photos on our ancient
                                      flip-phone.



                                      Please see the attached.

                                      Thanks,David











































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                                    • ross layberry
                                      Hi, Peter,    I just do not see what a committee could do beyond what has already been done. I am familiar with four of your examples; I had never heard of
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Aug 31
                                        Hi, Peter,

                                           I just do not see what a committee could do beyond what has already been done. I am familiar with four of your examples; I had never heard of the Ceraunus Blue "record", and would love to see any information available about it.

                                          The Florida Duskywing passed through several notable collections, and was examined over the course of at least fifty years by just about every prominent butterfly expert in North America, all of them referring to the specimen caught by J. Alston Moffat at Hamilton, Ont. He was not just an unknown; he was a very well-respected member of the Entomological Society of Ontario and contributed many, perhaps hundreds of article and notes to its publications. The specimen is still being studied; recently samples were taken for DNA comparison with others in the genus. The TEA decided to list it as a valid addition to the Ontario Butterfly list; how could we not?

                                           The Lyside Sulphur, I believe, was found dead by a student of Gard Otis at Guelph. We corresponded briefly about it, and as far as I know Gard never claimed that it was a genuine record; in fact, I am not sure it was even identified, at the time. So we did not list it.

                                           The European Peacock was certainly photographed in southern Ontario in 2014. Two people from the TEA visited the photographer and saw the spot where the photos had been taken. But there was some question that the butterfly may have "hitched a ride" there on a truck from Montreal, and it was decided that we not list the butterfly as a legitimate Ontario species. I did not agree with this reasoning, nor with that decision.

                                           The Diana Fritillary record is one that I found on BAMONA. It was seen in a garden by a science teacher who regularly photographed birds there. She recognised it immediately and ran inside for a camera, but was too late. She verified the observation by referring to a photo in a butterfly book, an easy identification as there is nothing anything like it in the area. However, lacking the photo, the TEA did not recognise it as a valid record. Interestingly, the new book on Butterflies of Ontario and Eastern Canada, by John Acorn, recognised both this species, and the Peacock.

                                        So as you see, these four examples of rare species were dealt with efficiently, and the butterfly community seems to accept them. What more could a committee do?

                                        Ross




                                        --------------------------------------------
                                        On Thu, 8/31/17, Judy and Peter Hall halljp@... [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...> wrote:

                                        Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)
                                        To: "butterfly_obs@..." <butterfly_obs@...>
                                        Received: Thursday, August 31, 2017, 4:50 PM










                                                












                                        Hi
                                        Ross:
                                        I
                                        certainly did not intend for my suggestion of rare butterfly
                                        records committees to become controversial. I welcome all
                                        opinions. I only suggested it as I was reminded that there
                                        are a number of Ontario butterfly records that appear to me
                                        to still be 'outstanding'.
                                        You say
                                        you don't see any problems. As you put it, 'If it
                                        ain't broke, don't fix it' But I personally
                                        still have a number of issues with supposed Ontario records
                                        that would be firsts for the province. Off the top of my
                                        head I would list:
                                        Florida
                                        Duskywing from a specimen record found at the Carnegie
                                        Museum in Pittsburg that is labelled Hamilton, Ontario,
                                        1877. This is a species that is found only in extreme
                                        southern Florida and is not known to
                                        wander:
                                        Lyside
                                        Sulphur from a dead specimen found on the grounds at the
                                        University of Guelph in 2011. It was presumed to be a stray
                                         but why couldn't it have fallen off a vehicle that
                                        had driven from the southern US where it is
                                        resident:
                                        Ceraunus
                                        Blue from a specimen reported to be taken at the Schreck
                                        Nature Reserve north of Kingston by a group from
                                        Guelph:
                                        European
                                        Peacock photographed in a backyard down near London in May
                                        2014. Could be a stray from Quebec but was it checked if
                                        anybody had reared them in the area:
                                        Diana
                                        Fritillary reported to BAMONA from a sighting in 2011 in SW
                                        Ontario but with no photo or specimen to
                                        verify.
                                        All of
                                        these records would be important additions to the Ontario
                                        butterfly fauna. I am not offering them up for further
                                        discussion now but to illustrate what I see as a problem. It
                                        would have been very useful if they had been written up and
                                        carefully studied and all supporting documentation
                                        gathered.
                                        Every time
                                        such sightings (often with no photos) are reported into the
                                        birding community, the observer (or discoverer for old
                                        records) is asked to file a full description of the sighting
                                        with diagnostic features noted and all contextual materials
                                        submitted (photos if available, weather conditions, habitats
                                        seen, possibilities of escapees, etc.). This then becomes a
                                        permanent record of the sighting for future
                                        reference.
                                        At
                                        present, as far as I know, such butterfly sightings are
                                        often skimpily reported and then it is up to individuals
                                        later to decide if they want to believe them or not. I am
                                        guilty of that myself in the writing of the butterflies of
                                        Canada and the Ontario field guide but we are offered no
                                        alternative in making our decisions in what to
                                        include.
                                        By the
                                        way, I am not suggesting a bureaucracy. This could all be
                                        handled by a committee of volunteers using the internet and
                                        only as required with new reports of unusual
                                        butterflies.
                                        Anyway, I
                                        still think its a good idea even if all don't
                                        agree.
                                        Cheers
                                        Peter

                                            
                                         
                                        From:
                                        "ross layberry rosslayberry@...
                                        [butterfly_obs]" <butterfly_obs@...>
                                          To:
                                        butterfly_obs@...
                                        Cc: alan
                                        macnaughton <amacnaug@...>; Glenn Richardson
                                        <glennr@...>
                                          Sent:
                                        Thursday, August 31, 2017 1:27 PM
                                          Subject: RE:
                                        [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)
                                           

                                         



                                          


                                            
                                              
                                              
                                               Hi, Colin,
                                        Peter,



                                        I do not see any problems that we are having right now.  The
                                        one possibly "endangered" species in Ontario, the
                                        Mottled Duskywing, has been protected as well as is
                                        possible, by informal discussion and agreements between all
                                        interested parties. I do not agree that another layer of
                                        bureaucracy is needed to "impose on" such
                                        interested parties. I can see that Peter and Colin are
                                        likely to feel differently: Peter worked for the federal
                                        government all his life and Colin does the same today with
                                        the provincial government. But I don't think that their
                                        opinions are typical among butterfly enthusiasts; we do not
                                        need, nor want, to be imposed upon.



                                        I think we should stick with the old adage: if it ain't
                                        broke, don't fix it!



                                        Ross

                                        --------------------------------------------

                                        On Thu, 8/31/17, 'Jones, Colin (MNRF)'
                                        colin.jones@... [butterfly_obs]
                                        <butterfly_obs@...> wrote:



                                        Subject: RE: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper?
                                        (Montreal)

                                          To: "butterfly_obs@..."
                                        <butterfly_obs@...>

                                          Received: Thursday, August 31, 2017, 12:27 PM

                                         

                                          Hi Peter,

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                          I wholeheartedly agree with you that a

                                          committee approach to reviewing records of exceptional

                                          rarities is an excellent idea and one that is long
                                        overdue

                                          in Ontario. I've been suggesting to the TEA for well
                                        over a

                                          decade that it would be very worthwhile to set one up.

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                          All the best,

                                         

                                          Colin

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                          ________________________________

                                         

                                          From: butterfly_obs@...

                                          [butterfly_obs@...]

                                          Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2017 3:26

                                          PM

                                          To: butterfly_obs@...

                                          Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs]

                                          Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                          Hi folks:

                                         

                                          I have been following this string of

                                          e-mails on the L-t Skipper in Montreal with interest as
                                        it

                                          raises the question of when do you accept, or not, a
                                        record

                                          of a rare or stray species. This can be important when
                                        you

                                          consider such things as regional, provincial, national

                                          checklists and possible protection mechanisms for species
                                        at

                                          risk. It will also become more important as species
                                        continue

                                          to expand their known ranges due to climate change.

                                         

                                          I am aware of a number of noteworthy

                                          records in Ontario and Quebec that were questionable at
                                        the

                                          time for a variety of reasons and never really resolved.

                                          Some were sightings with no validating specimen or
                                        photo.

                                          Some were the result of possible mislabelling of
                                        specimens

                                          through error or falsification. Some of these were
                                        accepted

                                          into the literature and passed on in subsequent

                                          publications. Others were dismissed and later proved to
                                        be

                                          true when subsequent individuals of the species were
                                        found.

                                         

                                          There are obviously a number of factors

                                          that need to be considered. These could include positive
                                        ID

                                          of a species, number of people observing it, supporting

                                          specimens or photos, habitat seen, distance from nearest

                                          known record, weather conditions, possibility of
                                        escapees.

                                         

                                          The birding community has been dealing

                                          with all such records through the establishment of rare
                                        bird

                                          record committees at different levels (regional,
                                        provincial,

                                          national, continental). Is it time the butterfly
                                        community

                                          consider forming its own such committees. I know we have

                                          peer review opportunities for follow up to important

                                          sightings and we have vetting mechansims for electronic

                                          databasing of observations. However, so does the birding

                                          community. It would only be those very unusual and
                                        debatable

                                          records that would be considered by a committee.This is
                                        how

                                          the birding community handles it under established

                                          guidelines.

                                         

                                          These are my initial thoughts on this

                                          issue. Happy to hear any comments or suggestions.

                                         

                                          Cheers

                                         

                                          Peter

                                         

                                         

                                          ________________________________

                                          From: "rick cavasin rrrcav@...

                                          [butterfly_obs]"
                                        <butterfly_obs@...>

                                          To: "butterfly_obs@..."

                                          <butterfly_obs@...>

                                          Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2017 2:09

                                          AM

                                          Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs]

                                          Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)

                                         

                                         

                                          Hi All,

                                         

                                          I was in touch with Max today, I guess

                                          he hasn't been reading the list because he had heard
                                        that

                                          the species was seen at the Botanical Gardens, but
                                        wasn't

                                          aware that it had been posted to the Ottawa list.

                                         

                                          Max says this is not a species they

                                          ever raise at the Instectarium, and he strongly doubts
                                        that

                                          it could have come in on any plants - he says that most
                                        (

                                          all? ) of the plants used at the Botanical Gardens are
                                        grown

                                          on site.

                                         

                                          He's of the ( strong ) opinion that

                                          this is a legitimate stray.

                                         

                                          As Ross pointed out, it has happened

                                          before in Ontario.  Who knows how many times
                                        exotics

                                          like this pass through our area without there being
                                        anyone

                                          around to notice.

                                         

                                          Cheers, Rick

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                          On 29 August 2017 at 19:41, David

                                          Allison
                                        d_k_allison@...<mailto:d_k_allison@...>

                                          [butterfly_obs]
                                        <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>

                                          wrote:

                                         

                                          Hi Folks,

                                         

                                          I did consider the possibility of

                                          escape since it was so close to the insectarium which we
                                        had

                                          just visited. I pointed it out to a staff member who
                                        said

                                          that they don't usually have any butterflies being
                                        raised or

                                          bred but when they do it is only local ones such as

                                          Monarchs. Also they said they didn't have any live

                                          butterflies at this time. Staff I spoke to had never
                                        seen

                                          this one and it took a while to convince them it was even
                                        in

                                          the skipper family. Another lady came along shortly after
                                        us

                                          who had Rick's fold out butterfly guide. When she saw
                                        it

                                          wasn't in that guide she had a good camera and got lots
                                        of

                                          nice photos. Hopefully she will post them or provide them
                                        to

                                          someone.

                                         

                                          I didn't think to ask about tropical

                                          plants but they certainly have lots there although I
                                        don't

                                          know if they import them or raise them in one of their

                                          greenhouses on site from seed or previous year plants.

                                          Montreal obviously has a busy airport and shipping
                                        terminal

                                          so there are lots of possible sources in addition to an

                                          accidental stray.

                                         

                                          Thanks,

                                          David

                                         

                                          ________________________________

                                          From: "'Jones, Colin (MNRF)'
                                        colin.jones@...<mailto:colin.jones@...>

                                          [butterfly_obs]"
                                        <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>

                                          To:
                                        "butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>"

                                          <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>

                                          Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2017 10:00

                                          AM

                                          Subject: RE: [butterfly_obs]

                                          Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)

                                         

                                          Hi all,

                                         

                                          I just want to be clear that I'm not

                                          saying that this individual couldn't be a legitimate
                                        stray

                                          from the south. As Ross has pointed out there are
                                        records

                                          from S Ontario and elsewhere in the northeast.

                                         

                                          What I'm suggesting is that there is

                                          also a possibility that this individual has escaped from
                                        one

                                          of two museums known to rear insects...both of these

                                          facilities are immediately beside the Botanical Gardens.

                                         

                                          There is at least one record of a Blue

                                          Morpho from the Niagara Gorge - it's origin is surely
                                        from

                                          the Niagara Butterfly Conservatory so we know that these

                                          things can and do escape.

                                         

                                          I think that it is important to look at

                                          all of the possibilities. If, for example, either of
                                        these

                                          facilities does raise Long-tailed Skipper, then I
                                        don't

                                          think that we could rule out the possibility that this

                                          individual's origin is more likely to have been an
                                        escape.

                                         

                                          Also, as Rick has mentioned, there

                                          doesn't seem to be any kind of movement of this
                                        species

                                          northward this year which doesn't completely rule out
                                        the

                                          possibility of this being a stray but it does seem odd
                                        that

                                          one would show up even further north (a new northernmost

                                          record?) with few to no other records this year N of

                                          Tennessee/W Virginia.

                                         

                                          Cheers,

                                          Colin

                                         

                                          ______________________________ __

                                          From:
                                        butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>

                                          [butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>]

                                          Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2017 9:19 AM

                                          To:
                                        butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>

                                          Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs]

                                          Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                          I think Colin was the one who

                                          originally brought up the possibility of it being an

                                          escapee.

                                         

                                          The thought never really crossed my

                                          mind.

                                         

                                          On 29 August 2017 at 09:15, ross

                                          layberry
                                        rosslayberry@...<mailto:rosslayberry@...><mailto:r

                                          osslayberry@...<mailto:rosslayberry@...>>

                                          [butterfly_obs]
                                        <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><

                                          mailto:butterfly_obs@
                                        yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>>

                                          wrote:

                                         

                                         

                                          I am not sure why there is so much

                                          doubt about this record. It has been reported four times
                                        in

                                          Ontario, and in circumstances where it looks as if a
                                        small

                                          migration occured. There were two records in 1994, on
                                        August

                                          7 at Point Pelee, and on August 18 at Ojibway Prairie,

                                          Windsor. And there were two, both photographed, in 2012,
                                        on

                                          September 1 at Princess Point, Hamilton, and on October 4
                                        in

                                          High Park, Toronto. At least this last one can be seen
                                        on

                                          eButterfly.

                                         

                                          oss

                                          ------------------------------

                                          --------------

                                          On Tue, 8/29/17, Gillian Mastromatteo

                                          sedge.sprite@...<mailto:sedge.sprite@...><mailto:

                                          sedge.sprite@...<mailto:sedge.sprite@...>>

                                          [butterfly_obs]
                                        <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><

                                          mailto:butterfly_obs@
                                        yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>>

                                          wrote:

                                         

                                          Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs]

                                          Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)

                                          To:
                                        "butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><

                                          mailto:butterfly_obs@
                                        yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>"

                                          <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><

                                          mailto:butterfly_obs@
                                        yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>>

                                          Received: Tuesday, August 29, 2017,

                                          6:12 AM

                                         

                                         

                                          #yiv6336530002 #yiv6336530002 --

                                         

                                         

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                                          #yiv6336530002

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                          Hi everyone,

                                          If the biodome doesn't have

                                          these butterflies, and if there has

                                          been no talk of anyone

                                          seeing them between Montreal and their

                                          breeding grounds,

                                          could it be possible that it came in as

                                          an egg on some

                                          tropical plants brought in to the

                                          biodome?  I'm not

                                          sure if it does still bring in foreign

                                          plants, but after

                                          reading horror stories of spiders and

                                          other insects coming

                                          into the country on produce, why not an

                                          egg?

                                          Cheers,

                                          Gillian

                                          On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at

                                          10:13 PM, rick cavasin
                                        rrrcav@...<mailto:rrrcav@...><mailto:rrrcav

                                          @...<mailto:rrrcav@...>>

                                          [butterfly_obs]
                                        <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><

                                          mailto:butterfly_obs@
                                        yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>>

                                          wrote:

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                                I doubt the

                                          biodome breeds this

                                          species, but Max can confirm that.

                                          There's not a whole lot I can do

                                          with these photos - the resolution is

                                          too low.  It does

                                          look like a Long Tailed Skipper. 

                                          I hadn't heard that

                                          the species was heading North . 

                                          Usually there's talk

                                          about this kind of thing down in

                                          Maryland.

                                          Cheers, Rick

                                          On 28 August 2017 at 21:11,

                                          'Jones, Colin (MNRF)'
                                        colin.jones@...<mailto:colin.jones@...><mailto:

                                          colin.jones@...<mailto:colin.jones@...>>

                                          [butterfly_obs]
                                        <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><

                                          mailto:butterfly_obs@
                                        yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>>

                                          wrote:

                                          Hi all,

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                          Very interesting record!

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                          My first question would be does either

                                          the Biodome or the

                                          Montreal Insectarium raise Long-tailed

                                          Skippers? If the

                                          answer is yes, then the origin of this

                                          individual is

                                          suspect.

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                          If the answer is no, then it's more

                                          likley that this

                                          individual is a stray from breeding

                                          grounds in the south.

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                          Cheers,

                                         

                                          Colin

                                         

                                          ______________________________

                                          __________

                                         

                                          From:
                                        butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><

                                          mailto:butterfly_obs@
                                        yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>

                                          [butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><

                                          mailto:butterfly_obs@
                                        yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>]

                                         

                                          Sent: Monday, August 28, 2017 8:38 PM

                                         

                                          To:
                                        butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><

                                          mailto:butterfly_obs@
                                        yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>

                                         

                                          Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs]

                                          Long-Tailed Skipper?

                                          (Montreal)

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                          Hi, David,

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                          I agree with your identification. But I

                                          think that Rick

                                          Cavasin will be able to make the photos

                                          clearer. I am sure

                                          that Max will be excited about it, too,

                                          a first record for

                                          Quebec. Perhaps you. or Rick, will be

                                          able to submit it to

                                          eButterfly, for Max.

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                          Ross

                                         

                                          ------------------------------

                                          --------------

                                         

                                          On Mon, 8/28/17, David Allison
                                        d_k_allison@...<mailto:d_k_allison@...><mailto:d_

                                          k_allison@...<mailto:d_k_allison@...>>

                                          [butterfly_obs]
                                        <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><

                                          mailto:butterfly_obs@
                                        yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>>

                                          wrote:

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                          Subject: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed

                                          Skipper? (Montreal)

                                         

                                          To: "Ottawa Butterflies"
                                        <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><

                                          mailto:butterfly_obs@
                                        yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>>

                                         

                                          Received: Monday, August 28, 2017, 7:51

                                          PM

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                          Hi

                                         

                                          Folks,

                                         

                                          My wife and I took the kids to the

                                          biodome in

                                         

                                          Montreal yesterday and stopped by the

                                          Botanical Gardens

                                          this

                                         

                                          morning to see the flowers just before

                                          coming home. While

                                          we

                                         

                                          were there, in addition to the usual

                                          butterfly suspects,

                                          we

                                         

                                          got some really good looks at what I am

                                          fairly sure is a

                                         

                                          Long-Tailed Skipper. Sadly our camera

                                          had died so we had

                                          to

                                         

                                          try and get photos on our ancient

                                          flip-phone.

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                          Please see the attached.

                                         

                                          Thanks,David

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                          ------------------------------ ------

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                          ------------------------------ ------

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                          ------------------------------ ------

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                          Yahoo Groups Links

                                         

                                         

                                         

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                                          Yahoo Groups Links

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

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                                      • Judy and Peter Hall
                                        Actually Ross, it appears to me that you just proved my point entirely. Each of the examples that you responded to, as far as I can determine, were decided
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Sep 1 5:36 AM
                                          Actually Ross, it appears to me that you just proved my point entirely. Each of the examples that you responded to, as far as I can determine, were decided upon largely by single individuals or individuals unnamed. Each of the decisions, which involve first records for Ontario and/or Canada, appear to still have concerns surrounding them, as you indicated you have and I also seriously have, with no means to settle the questions.

                                          The critical point is that all such very unusual and important sightings should be placed into an open process that would require a detailed description of the sighting for future reference that would go to a recognized and named group of specialists. If the TEA, for example, sees itself as the arbiter of such records for Ontario then that should be recognized and have a process around it. 

                                          I will be out of town for the next few days, but hope others will have the chance to pitch in with their thoughts. I look forward to seeing them.

                                          Peter





                                          From: "ross layberry rosslayberry@... [butterfly_obs]" <butterfly_obs@...>
                                          To: butterfly_obs@...
                                          Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2017 7:18 PM
                                          Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)

                                           
                                          Hi, Peter,

                                             I just do not see what a committee could do beyond what has already been done. I am familiar with four of your examples; I had never heard of the Ceraunus Blue "record", and would love to see any information available about it.

                                            The Florida Duskywing passed through several notable collections, and was examined over the course of at least fifty years by just about every prominent butterfly expert in North America, all of them referring to the specimen caught by J. Alston Moffat at Hamilton, Ont. He was not just an unknown; he was a very well-respected member of the Entomological Society of Ontario and contributed many, perhaps hundreds of article and notes to its publications. The specimen is still being studied; recently samples were taken for DNA comparison with others in the genus. The TEA decided to list it as a valid addition to the Ontario Butterfly list; how could we not?

                                             The Lyside Sulphur, I believe, was found dead by a student of Gard Otis at Guelph. We corresponded briefly about it, and as far as I know Gard never claimed that it was a genuine record; in fact, I am not sure it was even identified, at the time. So we did not list it.

                                             The European Peacock was certainly photographed in southern Ontario in 2014. Two people from the TEA visited the photographer and saw the spot where the photos had been taken. But there was some question that the butterfly may have "hitched a ride" there on a truck from Montreal, and it was decided that we not list the butterfly as a legitimate Ontario species. I did not agree with this reasoning, nor with that decision.

                                             The Diana Fritillary record is one that I found on BAMONA. It was seen in a garden by a science teacher who regularly photographed birds there. She recognised it immediately and ran inside for a camera, but was too late. She verified the observation by referring to a photo in a butterfly book, an easy identification as there is nothing anything like it in the area. However, lacking the photo, the TEA did not recognise it as a valid record. Interestingly, the new book on Butterflies of Ontario and Eastern Canada, by John Acorn, recognised both this species, and the Peacock.

                                          So as you see, these four examples of rare species were dealt with efficiently, and the butterfly community seems to accept them. What more could a committee do?

                                          Ross

                                          --------------------------------------------
                                          On Thu, 8/31/17, Judy and Peter Hall halljp@... [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...> wrote:

                                          Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)
                                          To: "butterfly_obs@..." <butterfly_obs@...>
                                          Received: Thursday, August 31, 2017, 4:50 PM










                                                  












                                          Hi
                                          Ross:
                                          I
                                          certainly did not intend for my suggestion of rare butterfly
                                          records committees to become controversial. I welcome all
                                          opinions. I only suggested it as I was reminded that there
                                          are a number of Ontario butterfly records that appear to me
                                          to still be 'outstanding'.
                                          You say
                                          you don't see any problems. As you put it, 'If it
                                          ain't broke, don't fix it' But I personally
                                          still have a number of issues with supposed Ontario records
                                          that would be firsts for the province. Off the top of my
                                          head I would list:
                                          Florida
                                          Duskywing from a specimen record found at the Carnegie
                                          Museum in Pittsburg that is labelled Hamilton, Ontario,
                                          1877. This is a species that is found only in extreme
                                          southern Florida and is not known to
                                          wander:
                                          Lyside
                                          Sulphur from a dead specimen found on the grounds at the
                                          University of Guelph in 2011. It was presumed to be a stray
                                           but why couldn't it have fallen off a vehicle that
                                          had driven from the southern US where it is
                                          resident:
                                          Ceraunus
                                          Blue from a specimen reported to be taken at the Schreck
                                          Nature Reserve north of Kingston by a group from
                                          Guelph:
                                          European
                                          Peacock photographed in a backyard down near London in May
                                          2014. Could be a stray from Quebec but was it checked if
                                          anybody had reared them in the area:
                                          Diana
                                          Fritillary reported to BAMONA from a sighting in 2011 in SW
                                          Ontario but with no photo or specimen to
                                          verify.
                                          All of
                                          these records would be important additions to the Ontario
                                          butterfly fauna. I am not offering them up for further
                                          discussion now but to illustrate what I see as a problem. It
                                          would have been very useful if they had been written up and
                                          carefully studied and all supporting documentation
                                          gathered.
                                          Every time
                                          such sightings (often with no photos) are reported into the
                                          birding community, the observer (or discoverer for old
                                          records) is asked to file a full description of the sighting
                                          with diagnostic features noted and all contextual materials
                                          submitted (photos if available, weather conditions, habitats
                                          seen, possibilities of escapees, etc.). This then becomes a
                                          permanent record of the sighting for future
                                          reference.
                                          At
                                          present, as far as I know, such butterfly sightings are
                                          often skimpily reported and then it is up to individuals
                                          later to decide if they want to believe them or not. I am
                                          guilty of that myself in the writing of the butterflies of
                                          Canada and the Ontario field guide but we are offered no
                                          alternative in making our decisions in what to
                                          include.
                                          By the
                                          way, I am not suggesting a bureaucracy. This could all be
                                          handled by a committee of volunteers using the internet and
                                          only as required with new reports of unusual
                                          butterflies.
                                          Anyway, I
                                          still think its a good idea even if all don't
                                          agree.
                                          Cheers
                                          Peter

                                              
                                           
                                          From:
                                          "ross layberry rosslayberry@...
                                          [butterfly_obs]" <butterfly_obs@...>
                                            To:
                                          butterfly_obs@...
                                          Cc: alan
                                          macnaughton <amacnaug@...>; Glenn Richardson
                                          <glennr@...>
                                            Sent:
                                          Thursday, August 31, 2017 1:27 PM
                                            Subject: RE:
                                          [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)
                                             

                                           



                                            


                                              
                                                
                                                
                                                 Hi, Colin,
                                          Peter,



                                          I do not see any problems that we are having right now.  The
                                          one possibly "endangered" species in Ontario, the
                                          Mottled Duskywing, has been protected as well as is
                                          possible, by informal discussion and agreements between all
                                          interested parties. I do not agree that another layer of
                                          bureaucracy is needed to "impose on" such
                                          interested parties. I can see that Peter and Colin are
                                          likely to feel differently: Peter worked for the federal
                                          government all his life and Colin does the same today with
                                          the provincial government. But I don't think that their
                                          opinions are typical among butterfly enthusiasts; we do not
                                          need, nor want, to be imposed upon.



                                          I think we should stick with the old adage: if it ain't
                                          broke, don't fix it!



                                          Ross

                                          --------------------------------------------

                                          On Thu, 8/31/17, 'Jones, Colin (MNRF)'
                                          colin.jones@... [butterfly_obs]
                                          <butterfly_obs@...> wrote:



                                          Subject: RE: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper?
                                          (Montreal)

                                            To: "butterfly_obs@..."
                                          <butterfly_obs@...>

                                            Received: Thursday, August 31, 2017, 12:27 PM

                                           

                                            Hi Peter,

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                            I wholeheartedly agree with you that a

                                            committee approach to reviewing records of exceptional

                                            rarities is an excellent idea and one that is long
                                          overdue

                                            in Ontario. I've been suggesting to the TEA for well
                                          over a

                                            decade that it would be very worthwhile to set one up.

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                            All the best,

                                           

                                            Colin

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                            ________________________________

                                           

                                            From: butterfly_obs@...

                                            [butterfly_obs@...]

                                            Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2017 3:26

                                            PM

                                            To: butterfly_obs@...

                                            Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs]

                                            Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                            Hi folks:

                                           

                                            I have been following this string of

                                            e-mails on the L-t Skipper in Montreal with interest as
                                          it

                                            raises the question of when do you accept, or not, a
                                          record

                                            of a rare or stray species. This can be important when
                                          you

                                            consider such things as regional, provincial, national

                                            checklists and possible protection mechanisms for species
                                          at

                                            risk. It will also become more important as species
                                          continue

                                            to expand their known ranges due to climate change.

                                           

                                            I am aware of a number of noteworthy

                                            records in Ontario and Quebec that were questionable at
                                          the

                                            time for a variety of reasons and never really resolved.

                                            Some were sightings with no validating specimen or
                                          photo.

                                            Some were the result of possible mislabelling of
                                          specimens

                                            through error or falsification. Some of these were
                                          accepted

                                            into the literature and passed on in subsequent

                                            publications. Others were dismissed and later proved to
                                          be

                                            true when subsequent individuals of the species were
                                          found.

                                           

                                            There are obviously a number of factors

                                            that need to be considered. These could include positive
                                          ID

                                            of a species, number of people observing it, supporting

                                            specimens or photos, habitat seen, distance from nearest

                                            known record, weather conditions, possibility of
                                          escapees.

                                           

                                            The birding community has been dealing

                                            with all such records through the establishment of rare
                                          bird

                                            record committees at different levels (regional,
                                          provincial,

                                            national, continental). Is it time the butterfly
                                          community

                                            consider forming its own such committees. I know we have

                                            peer review opportunities for follow up to important

                                            sightings and we have vetting mechansims for electronic

                                            databasing of observations. However, so does the birding

                                            community. It would only be those very unusual and
                                          debatable

                                            records that would be considered by a committee.This is
                                          how

                                            the birding community handles it under established

                                            guidelines.

                                           

                                            These are my initial thoughts on this

                                            issue. Happy to hear any comments or suggestions.

                                           

                                            Cheers

                                           

                                            Peter

                                           

                                           

                                            ________________________________

                                            From: "rick cavasin rrrcav@...

                                            [butterfly_obs]"
                                          <butterfly_obs@...>

                                            To: "butterfly_obs@..."

                                            <butterfly_obs@...>

                                            Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2017 2:09

                                            AM

                                            Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs]

                                            Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)

                                           

                                           

                                            Hi All,

                                           

                                            I was in touch with Max today, I guess

                                            he hasn't been reading the list because he had heard
                                          that

                                            the species was seen at the Botanical Gardens, but
                                          wasn't

                                            aware that it had been posted to the Ottawa list.

                                           

                                            Max says this is not a species they

                                            ever raise at the Instectarium, and he strongly doubts
                                          that

                                            it could have come in on any plants - he says that most
                                          (

                                            all? ) of the plants used at the Botanical Gardens are
                                          grown

                                            on site.

                                           

                                            He's of the ( strong ) opinion that

                                            this is a legitimate stray.

                                           

                                            As Ross pointed out, it has happened

                                            before in Ontario.  Who knows how many times
                                          exotics

                                            like this pass through our area without there being
                                          anyone

                                            around to notice.

                                           

                                            Cheers, Rick

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                            On 29 August 2017 at 19:41, David

                                            Allison
                                          d_k_allison@...<mailto:d_k_allison@...>

                                            [butterfly_obs]
                                          <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>

                                            wrote:

                                           

                                            Hi Folks,

                                           

                                            I did consider the possibility of

                                            escape since it was so close to the insectarium which we
                                          had

                                            just visited. I pointed it out to a staff member who
                                          said

                                            that they don't usually have any butterflies being
                                          raised or

                                            bred but when they do it is only local ones such as

                                            Monarchs. Also they said they didn't have any live

                                            butterflies at this time. Staff I spoke to had never
                                          seen

                                            this one and it took a while to convince them it was even
                                          in

                                            the skipper family. Another lady came along shortly after
                                          us

                                            who had Rick's fold out butterfly guide. When she saw
                                          it

                                            wasn't in that guide she had a good camera and got lots
                                          of

                                            nice photos. Hopefully she will post them or provide them
                                          to

                                            someone.

                                           

                                            I didn't think to ask about tropical

                                            plants but they certainly have lots there although I
                                          don't

                                            know if they import them or raise them in one of their

                                            greenhouses on site from seed or previous year plants.

                                            Montreal obviously has a busy airport and shipping
                                          terminal

                                            so there are lots of possible sources in addition to an

                                            accidental stray.

                                           

                                            Thanks,

                                            David

                                           

                                            ________________________________

                                            From: "'Jones, Colin (MNRF)'
                                          colin.jones@...<mailto:colin.jones@...>

                                            [butterfly_obs]"
                                          <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>

                                            To:
                                          "butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>"

                                            <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>

                                            Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2017 10:00

                                            AM

                                            Subject: RE: [butterfly_obs]

                                            Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)

                                           

                                            Hi all,

                                           

                                            I just want to be clear that I'm not

                                            saying that this individual couldn't be a legitimate
                                          stray

                                            from the south. As Ross has pointed out there are
                                          records

                                            from S Ontario and elsewhere in the northeast.

                                           

                                            What I'm suggesting is that there is

                                            also a possibility that this individual has escaped from
                                          one

                                            of two museums known to rear insects...both of these

                                            facilities are immediately beside the Botanical Gardens.

                                           

                                            There is at least one record of a Blue

                                            Morpho from the Niagara Gorge - it's origin is surely
                                          from

                                            the Niagara Butterfly Conservatory so we know that these

                                            things can and do escape.

                                           

                                            I think that it is important to look at

                                            all of the possibilities. If, for example, either of
                                          these

                                            facilities does raise Long-tailed Skipper, then I
                                          don't

                                            think that we could rule out the possibility that this

                                            individual's origin is more likely to have been an
                                          escape.

                                           

                                            Also, as Rick has mentioned, there

                                            doesn't seem to be any kind of movement of this
                                          species

                                            northward this year which doesn't completely rule out
                                          the

                                            possibility of this being a stray but it does seem odd
                                          that

                                            one would show up even further north (a new northernmost

                                            record?) with few to no other records this year N of

                                            Tennessee/W Virginia.

                                           

                                            Cheers,

                                            Colin

                                           

                                            ______________________________ __

                                            From:
                                          butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>

                                            [butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>]

                                            Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2017 9:19 AM

                                            To:
                                          butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>

                                            Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs]

                                            Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                            I think Colin was the one who

                                            originally brought up the possibility of it being an

                                            escapee.

                                           

                                            The thought never really crossed my

                                            mind.

                                           

                                            On 29 August 2017 at 09:15, ross

                                            layberry
                                          rosslayberry@...<mailto:rosslayberry@...><mailto:r

                                            osslayberry@...<mailto:rosslayberry@...>>

                                            [butterfly_obs]
                                          <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><

                                            mailto:butterfly_obs@
                                          yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>>

                                            wrote:

                                           

                                           

                                            I am not sure why there is so much

                                            doubt about this record. It has been reported four times
                                          in

                                            Ontario, and in circumstances where it looks as if a
                                          small

                                            migration occured. There were two records in 1994, on
                                          August

                                            7 at Point Pelee, and on August 18 at Ojibway Prairie,

                                            Windsor. And there were two, both photographed, in 2012,
                                          on

                                            September 1 at Princess Point, Hamilton, and on October 4
                                          in

                                            High Park, Toronto. At least this last one can be seen
                                          on

                                            eButterfly.

                                           

                                            oss

                                            ------------------------------

                                            --------------

                                            On Tue, 8/29/17, Gillian Mastromatteo

                                            sedge.sprite@...<mailto:sedge.sprite@...><mailto:

                                            sedge.sprite@...<mailto:sedge.sprite@...>>

                                            [butterfly_obs]
                                          <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><

                                            mailto:butterfly_obs@
                                          yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>>

                                            wrote:

                                           

                                            Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs]

                                            Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)

                                            To:
                                          "butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><

                                            mailto:butterfly_obs@
                                          yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>"

                                            <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><

                                            mailto:butterfly_obs@
                                          yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>>

                                            Received: Tuesday, August 29, 2017,

                                            6:12 AM

                                           

                                           

                                            #yiv6336530002 #yiv6336530002 --

                                           

                                           

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                                                      a,

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                                            clear:both;padding:15px 0 3px

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                                            {

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                                            #yiv6336530002ygrp-mkp {

                                            border:1px solid

                                            #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial; margin:10px

                                            0;padding:0 10px;}

                                           

                                            #yiv6336530002 #yiv6336530002ygrp-mkp

                                            hr {

                                            border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

                                           

                                            #yiv6336530002 #yiv6336530002ygrp-mkp

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                                            #yiv6336530002 #yiv6336530002ygrp-mkp

                                            .yiv6336530002ad a {

                                            color:#0000ff;text-decoration: none;}

                                            #yiv6336530002

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                            Hi everyone,

                                            If the biodome doesn't have

                                            these butterflies, and if there has

                                            been no talk of anyone

                                            seeing them between Montreal and their

                                            breeding grounds,

                                            could it be possible that it came in as

                                            an egg on some

                                            tropical plants brought in to the

                                            biodome?  I'm not

                                            sure if it does still bring in foreign

                                            plants, but after

                                            reading horror stories of spiders and

                                            other insects coming

                                            into the country on produce, why not an

                                            egg?

                                            Cheers,

                                            Gillian

                                            On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at

                                            10:13 PM, rick cavasin
                                          rrrcav@...<mailto:rrrcav@...><mailto:rrrcav

                                            @...<mailto:rrrcav@...>>

                                            [butterfly_obs]
                                          <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><

                                            mailto:butterfly_obs@
                                          yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>>

                                            wrote:

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                                  I doubt the

                                            biodome breeds this

                                            species, but Max can confirm that.

                                            There's not a whole lot I can do

                                            with these photos - the resolution is

                                            too low.  It does

                                            look like a Long Tailed Skipper. 

                                            I hadn't heard that

                                            the species was heading North . 

                                            Usually there's talk

                                            about this kind of thing down in

                                            Maryland.

                                            Cheers, Rick

                                            On 28 August 2017 at 21:11,

                                            'Jones, Colin (MNRF)'
                                          colin.jones@...<mailto:colin.jones@...><mailto:

                                            colin.jones@...<mailto:colin.jones@...>>

                                            [butterfly_obs]
                                          <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><

                                            mailto:butterfly_obs@
                                          yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>>

                                            wrote:

                                            Hi all,

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                            Very interesting record!

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                            My first question would be does either

                                            the Biodome or the

                                            Montreal Insectarium raise Long-tailed

                                            Skippers? If the

                                            answer is yes, then the origin of this

                                            individual is

                                            suspect.

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                            If the answer is no, then it's more

                                            likley that this

                                            individual is a stray from breeding

                                            grounds in the south.

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                            Cheers,

                                           

                                            Colin

                                           

                                            ______________________________

                                            __________

                                           

                                            From:
                                          butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><

                                            mailto:butterfly_obs@
                                          yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>

                                            [butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><

                                            mailto:butterfly_obs@
                                          yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>]

                                           

                                            Sent: Monday, August 28, 2017 8:38 PM

                                           

                                            To:
                                          butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><

                                            mailto:butterfly_obs@
                                          yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>

                                           

                                            Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs]

                                            Long-Tailed Skipper?

                                            (Montreal)

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                            Hi, David,

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                            I agree with your identification. But I

                                            think that Rick

                                            Cavasin will be able to make the photos

                                            clearer. I am sure

                                            that Max will be excited about it, too,

                                            a first record for

                                            Quebec. Perhaps you. or Rick, will be

                                            able to submit it to

                                            eButterfly, for Max.

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                            Ross

                                           

                                            ------------------------------

                                            --------------

                                           

                                            On Mon, 8/28/17, David Allison
                                          d_k_allison@...<mailto:d_k_allison@...><mailto:d_

                                            k_allison@...<mailto:d_k_allison@...>>

                                            [butterfly_obs]
                                          <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><

                                            mailto:butterfly_obs@
                                          yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>>

                                            wrote:

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                            Subject: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed

                                            Skipper? (Montreal)

                                           

                                            To: "Ottawa Butterflies"
                                          <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><

                                            mailto:butterfly_obs@
                                          yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>>

                                           

                                            Received: Monday, August 28, 2017, 7:51

                                            PM

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                            Hi

                                           

                                            Folks,

                                           

                                            My wife and I took the kids to the

                                            biodome in

                                           

                                            Montreal yesterday and stopped by the

                                            Botanical Gardens

                                            this

                                           

                                            morning to see the flowers just before

                                            coming home. While

                                            we

                                           

                                            were there, in addition to the usual

                                            butterfly suspects,

                                            we

                                           

                                            got some really good looks at what I am

                                            fairly sure is a

                                           

                                            Long-Tailed Skipper. Sadly our camera

                                            had died so we had

                                            to

                                           

                                            try and get photos on our ancient

                                            flip-phone.

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                            Please see the attached.

                                           

                                            Thanks,David

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                            ------------------------------ ------

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                            ------------------------------ ------

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                            ------------------------------ ------

                                           

                                           

                                           

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                                          #yiv3293467162   --
                                             #yiv3293467162ygrp-mkp {
                                          border:1px solid

                                          (Message over 64 KB, truncated)
                                        • rick cavasin
                                          Hi All, The objective/mandate of this proposed committee isn t clear to me either. Peter has cited several examples of exotic strays that have been found in
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Sep 1 6:32 AM
                                            Hi All,

                                            The objective/mandate of this proposed committee isn't clear to me either.  Peter has cited several examples of exotic strays that have been found in Ontario, but I'm not sure what it is that the proposed committee would do in any of these cases.  Perhaps he can give us a walkthrough of what he imagines the committee will do on a given example.   

                                            What I do find interesting that all the examples he gave were one-time strays.  I don't understand why we pay so much attention to them.  As far as I'm concerned, they are anomalies, regardless of how they got here.  I don't believe we should be adding species to our checklists based on these one-time sightings.  I think it sends the wrong message.

                                            Take the Florida Duskywing or Weidermeyer's Admiral for example.  What is the point of having them on our species list?   Even if they got here under their own steam, so what?   Neither one has been seen since.    

                                            A number of species have been accidentally transported to Canada from Europe.  This means that almost any species could be accidentally transported from the US.  At least in theory, a time will come when every butterfly species found in the US will have turned up in Canada.  

                                            Why do we spend so much time and  energy on these one-time occurrences?   I think all the one-offs should be taken off the main Ontario checklist and put into a separate "strays" category until we get a few additional observations.

                                            As far as the Diana Fritillary record goes, I submit that it is far fetched to the point of being ludicrous.  Diana is not a species that is expanding its range.  If anything, it has in fact disappeared from much of its former range ( especially the Northern part of its range! ).  It isn't subject to populations explosions or to northward irruptions.  I've polled a number of experts from the US who are familiar with the species, and most of them are dismissive of the Ontario record.  

                                            And the statement that there is nothing like it in our area is FALSE.  The female Diana is considered to be a mimic of the Pipevine Swallowtail.  It may not be a particularly good mimic, but I can see a naive observer confusing it with a Red-Spotted Purple.  The very fact that the observation makes no mention of whether it was a male or a female makes it automatically suspect.  The two are very different.  How is it that both the observer and the vetter make no note of this?  Even the male could be mistaken for a number of other species by someone who isn't a seasoned butterflier ( keeping in mind that the butterfy was viewed at a distance, it was not captured and examined up close ). Even experts make mistakes when identifying photographs - how much easier would it be for a non-expert to mis-remember what it was they saw at a distance?   

                                            The fact that the observer was a science teacher is completely irrelevant.  That they photograph birds regularly isn't very significant either.  I've seen birders make all kinds of mis-identifications with butterfliers, even when they have  a photo.  I'm very good at IDing butterflies - I can usually ID them correctly when they're on the wing - but I'm not any good at IDing birds.  Why should we believe that a birder has a natural knack for IDing butterflies?    

                                            To be honest Ross, I would be dubious of anyone reporting Diana Fritillary in Ontario based on sighting it at a distance - including you.  I might make an exception for someone who has seen it many times in its native habitat.   

                                            I was once at Pinery PP and I saw a large yellow butterfly fly by.  As far as I could tell, it was too large to be any of our local Colias species, and it appeared to have no black markings on it at all.  It was very likely a Cloudless Sulphur, but I had never seen one before. Cloudless Sulphur are rare, but not unheard of in that area.  It was 2012, when there were a fair number of Cloudless Sulphurs reported in Ontario.   Even though that would have been a plausible ID, and it would not have precipitated changes to range maps, seasonal distributions, or regional checklists, I did not report the sighting.

                                            I submit that "Extraordinary claims should be supported by extraordinary evidence" is a maxim that should apply to a case like the Diana Fritillary sighting.  

                                            Why Acorn chose to include Diana in his book based on one dubious record is a mystery to me, but he seems to have treated several species this way  ( eg. Common Alpine in Quebec ).  The Peacock belongs in the book since the species is well established in Quebec, and the book is intended to cover Eastern Canada.  

                                            It's shocking that you would mention the Diana Fritillary and the European Peacock in the same sentence.  The cases are miles apart in terms of supporting evidence.  Even if all we had was the one photo of the Peacock in Ontario, that would be a much better evidence than what we have for Diana.

                                            Even if we have a committee to adjudicate over the validity of these records, there will be some who will choose to accept the committee's rulings, and others who choose not to.  In the case of the Diana, my guess is that the committee would dismiss it is a dubious/spurious record, but Ross will continue to accept it as valid, and the record will remain in BAMONA.   I don't see how the committee will be able to "enforce" their rulings.  Perhaps the TEA would commit to abide by the committee's rulings in terms of what is and is not included in the Atlas, but that wouldn't stop someone like John Acorn from including dubious records in their books.  At least the committee could document the sightings and the controversy surrounding them.  I suppose that's something. 

                                            Perhaps I'm not understanding how this committee would work.  But as I said previously, I think it's depressing that we should be devoting so much effort to one-off observations of exotic strays.

                                            Cheers, Rick


                                            On 31 August 2017 at 19:18, ross layberry rosslayberry@... [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...> wrote:
                                             

                                            Hi, Peter,

                                               I just do not see what a committee could do beyond what has already been done. I am familiar with four of your examples; I had never heard of the Ceraunus Blue "record", and would love to see any information available about it.

                                              The Florida Duskywing passed through several notable collections, and was examined over the course of at least fifty years by just about every prominent butterfly expert in North America, all of them referring to the specimen caught by J. Alston Moffat at Hamilton, Ont. He was not just an unknown; he was a very well-respected member of the Entomological Society of Ontario and contributed many, perhaps hundreds of article and notes to its publications. The specimen is still being studied; recently samples were taken for DNA comparison with others in the genus. The TEA decided to list it as a valid addition to the Ontario Butterfly list; how could we not?

                                               The Lyside Sulphur, I believe, was found dead by a student of Gard Otis at Guelph. We corresponded briefly about it, and as far as I know Gard never claimed that it was a genuine record; in fact, I am not sure it was even identified, at the time. So we did not list it.

                                               The European Peacock was certainly photographed in southern Ontario in 2014. Two people from the TEA visited the photographer and saw the spot where the photos had been taken. But there was some question that the butterfly may have "hitched a ride" there on a truck from Montreal, and it was decided that we not list the butterfly as a legitimate Ontario species. I did not agree with this reasoning, nor with that decision.

                                               The Diana Fritillary record is one that I found on BAMONA. It was seen in a garden by a science teacher who regularly photographed birds there. She recognised it immediately and ran inside for a camera, but was too late. She verified the observation by referring to a photo in a butterfly book, an easy identification as there is nothing anything like it in the area. However, lacking the photo, the TEA did not recognise it as a valid record. Interestingly, the new book on Butterflies of Ontario and Eastern Canada, by John Acorn, recognised both this species, and the Peacock.

                                            So as you see, these four examples of rare species were dealt with efficiently, and the butterfly community seems to accept them. What more could a committee do?

                                            Ross

                                          • ross layberry
                                            Hi, Peter, I always forget that you are not a member of the TEA. But two of these species have been covered in depth in TEA publications. There is a five-page
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Sep 1 8:28 AM
                                              Hi, Peter,

                                              I always forget that you are not a member of the TEA. But two of these species have been covered in depth in TEA publications. There is a five-page article about the Florida Duskywing in Ontario Lepidoptera 2015, pages 21 to 25. There is a 1.5 page article on the Peacock in Ontario Insects 20:1, pages 6 and 7, and another page and a bit discussing whether it should be accepted into the Ontario fauna in Ontario Lepidoptera 2014, pages 81 and 82.

                                              Ross
                                              --------------------------------------------
                                              On Fri, 9/1/17, Judy and Peter Hall halljp@... [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...> wrote:

                                              Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)
                                              To: "butterfly_obs@..." <butterfly_obs@...>
                                              Received: Friday, September 1, 2017, 8:36 AM























                                              Actually
                                              Ross, it appears to me that you just proved my point
                                              entirely. Each of the examples that you responded to, as far
                                              as I can determine, were decided upon largely by single
                                              individuals or individuals unnamed. Each of the decisions,
                                              which involve first records for Ontario and/or Canada,
                                              appear to still have concerns surrounding them, as you
                                              indicated you have and I also seriously have, with no means
                                              to settle the questions.
                                              The
                                              critical point is that all such very unusual and important
                                              sightings should be placed into an open process that would
                                              require a detailed description of the sighting for future
                                              reference that would go to a recognized and named group of
                                              specialists. If the TEA, for example, sees itself as the
                                              arbiter of such records for Ontario then that should be
                                              recognized and have a process around it. 

                                              I will be
                                              out of town for the next few days, but hope others will have
                                              the chance to pitch in with their thoughts. I look forward
                                              to seeing them.
                                              Peter



                                              From: "ross
                                              layberry rosslayberry@... [butterfly_obs]"
                                              <butterfly_obs@...>

                                              To:
                                              butterfly_obs@...
                                              Sent: Thursday, August
                                              31, 2017 7:18 PM
                                              Subject: Re:
                                              [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)


                                               









                                              Hi, Peter,



                                                 I just do not see what a committee could do
                                              beyond what has already been done. I am familiar with four
                                              of your examples; I had never heard of the Ceraunus Blue
                                              "record", and would love to see any information
                                              available about it.



                                                The Florida Duskywing passed through several notable
                                              collections, and was examined over the course of at least
                                              fifty years by just about every prominent butterfly expert
                                              in North America, all of them referring to the specimen
                                              caught by J. Alston Moffat at Hamilton, Ont. He was not just
                                              an unknown; he was a very well-respected member of the
                                              Entomological Society of Ontario and contributed many,
                                              perhaps hundreds of article and notes to its publications.
                                              The specimen is still being studied; recently samples were
                                              taken for DNA comparison with others in the genus. The TEA
                                              decided to list it as a valid addition to the Ontario
                                              Butterfly list; how could we not?



                                                 The Lyside Sulphur, I believe, was found dead
                                              by a student of Gard Otis at Guelph. We corresponded briefly
                                              about it, and as far as I know Gard never claimed that it
                                              was a genuine record; in fact, I am not sure it was even
                                              identified, at the time. So we did not list it.



                                                 The European Peacock was certainly photographed
                                              in southern Ontario in 2014. Two people from the TEA visited
                                              the photographer and saw the spot where the photos had been
                                              taken. But there was some question that the butterfly may
                                              have "hitched a ride" there on a truck from
                                              Montreal, and it was decided that we not list the butterfly
                                              as a legitimate Ontario species. I did not agree with this
                                              reasoning, nor with that decision.



                                                 The Diana Fritillary record is one that I
                                              found on BAMONA. It was seen in a garden by a science
                                              teacher who regularly photographed birds there. She
                                              recognised it immediately and ran inside for a camera, but
                                              was too late. She verified the observation by referring to a
                                              photo in a butterfly book, an easy identification as there
                                              is nothing anything like it in the area. However, lacking
                                              the photo, the TEA did not recognise it as a valid record.
                                              Interestingly, the new book on Butterflies of Ontario and
                                              Eastern Canada, by John Acorn, recognised both this species,
                                              and the Peacock.



                                              So as you see, these four examples of rare species were
                                              dealt with efficiently, and the butterfly community seems to
                                              accept them. What more could a committee do?



                                              Ross



                                              --------------------------------------------

                                              On Thu, 8/31/17, Judy and Peter Hall halljp@...
                                              [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...>
                                              wrote:



                                              Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper?
                                              (Montreal)

                                              To: "butterfly_obs@..."
                                              <butterfly_obs@...>

                                              Received: Thursday, August 31, 2017, 4:50 PM





















                                                      

























                                              Hi

                                              Ross:

                                              I

                                              certainly did not intend for my suggestion of rare
                                              butterfly

                                              records committees to become controversial. I welcome
                                              all

                                              opinions. I only suggested it as I was reminded that
                                              there

                                              are a number of Ontario butterfly records that appear to
                                              me

                                              to still be 'outstanding'.

                                              You say

                                              you don't see any problems. As you put it, 'If
                                              it

                                              ain't broke, don't fix it' But I personally

                                              still have a number of issues with supposed Ontario
                                              records

                                              that would be firsts for the province. Off the top of my

                                              head I would list:

                                              Florida

                                              Duskywing from a specimen record found at the Carnegie

                                              Museum in Pittsburg that is labelled Hamilton, Ontario,

                                              1877. This is a species that is found only in extreme

                                              southern Florida and is not known to

                                              wander:

                                              Lyside

                                              Sulphur from a dead specimen found on the grounds at the

                                              University of Guelph in 2011. It was presumed to be a
                                              stray

                                               but why couldn't it have fallen off a vehicle
                                              that

                                              had driven from the southern US where it is

                                              resident:

                                              Ceraunus

                                              Blue from a specimen reported to be taken at the Schreck

                                              Nature Reserve north of Kingston by a group from

                                              Guelph:

                                              European

                                              Peacock photographed in a backyard down near London in
                                              May

                                              2014. Could be a stray from Quebec but was it checked if

                                              anybody had reared them in the area:

                                              Diana

                                              Fritillary reported to BAMONA from a sighting in 2011 in
                                              SW

                                              Ontario but with no photo or specimen to

                                              verify.

                                              All of

                                              these records would be important additions to the
                                              Ontario

                                              butterfly fauna. I am not offering them up for further

                                              discussion now but to illustrate what I see as a problem.
                                              It

                                              would have been very useful if they had been written up
                                              and

                                              carefully studied and all supporting documentation

                                              gathered.

                                              Every time

                                              such sightings (often with no photos) are reported into
                                              the

                                              birding community, the observer (or discoverer for old

                                              records) is asked to file a full description of the
                                              sighting

                                              with diagnostic features noted and all contextual
                                              materials

                                              submitted (photos if available, weather conditions,
                                              habitats

                                              seen, possibilities of escapees, etc.). This then becomes
                                              a

                                              permanent record of the sighting for future

                                              reference.

                                              At

                                              present, as far as I know, such butterfly sightings are

                                              often skimpily reported and then it is up to individuals

                                              later to decide if they want to believe them or not. I
                                              am

                                              guilty of that myself in the writing of the butterflies
                                              of

                                              Canada and the Ontario field guide but we are offered no

                                              alternative in making our decisions in what to

                                              include.

                                              By the

                                              way, I am not suggesting a bureaucracy. This could all
                                              be

                                              handled by a committee of volunteers using the internet
                                              and

                                              only as required with new reports of unusual

                                              butterflies.

                                              Anyway, I

                                              still think its a good idea even if all don't

                                              agree.

                                              Cheers

                                              Peter



                                                  

                                               

                                              From:

                                              "ross layberry rosslayberry@...

                                              [butterfly_obs]"
                                              <butterfly_obs@...>

                                                To:

                                              butterfly_obs@...

                                              Cc: alan

                                              macnaughton <amacnaug@...>; Glenn
                                              Richardson

                                              <glennr@...>

                                                Sent:

                                              Thursday, August 31, 2017 1:27 PM

                                                Subject: RE:

                                              [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)

                                                 



                                               







                                                





                                                  

                                                    

                                                    

                                                     Hi, Colin,

                                              Peter,







                                              I do not see any problems that we are having right
                                              now.  The

                                              one possibly "endangered" species in Ontario,
                                              the

                                              Mottled Duskywing, has been protected as well as is

                                              possible, by informal discussion and agreements between
                                              all

                                              interested parties. I do not agree that another layer of

                                              bureaucracy is needed to "impose on" such

                                              interested parties. I can see that Peter and Colin are

                                              likely to feel differently: Peter worked for the federal

                                              government all his life and Colin does the same today
                                              with

                                              the provincial government. But I don't think that
                                              their

                                              opinions are typical among butterfly enthusiasts; we do
                                              not

                                              need, nor want, to be imposed upon.







                                              I think we should stick with the old adage: if it
                                              ain't

                                              broke, don't fix it!







                                              Ross



                                              --------------------------------------------



                                              On Thu, 8/31/17, 'Jones, Colin (MNRF)'

                                              colin.jones@... [butterfly_obs]

                                              <butterfly_obs@...> wrote:







                                              Subject: RE: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper?

                                              (Montreal)



                                                To: "butterfly_obs@..."

                                              <butterfly_obs@...>



                                                Received: Thursday, August 31, 2017, 12:27 PM



                                               



                                                Hi Peter,



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                                I wholeheartedly agree with you that a



                                                committee approach to reviewing records of
                                              exceptional



                                                rarities is an excellent idea and one that is long

                                              overdue



                                                in Ontario. I've been suggesting to the TEA for
                                              well

                                              over a



                                                decade that it would be very worthwhile to set one
                                              up.



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                                All the best,



                                               



                                                Colin



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                                ________________________________



                                               



                                                From: butterfly_obs@...



                                                [butterfly_obs@...]



                                                Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2017 3:26



                                                PM



                                                To: butterfly_obs@...



                                                Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs]



                                                Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                                Hi folks:



                                               



                                                I have been following this string of



                                                e-mails on the L-t Skipper in Montreal with interest
                                              as

                                              it



                                                raises the question of when do you accept, or not,
                                              a

                                              record



                                                of a rare or stray species. This can be important
                                              when

                                              you



                                                consider such things as regional, provincial,
                                              national



                                                checklists and possible protection mechanisms for
                                              species

                                              at



                                                risk. It will also become more important as
                                              species

                                              continue



                                                to expand their known ranges due to climate
                                              change.



                                               



                                                I am aware of a number of noteworthy



                                                records in Ontario and Quebec that were questionable
                                              at

                                              the



                                                time for a variety of reasons and never really
                                              resolved.



                                                Some were sightings with no validating specimen or

                                              photo.



                                                Some were the result of possible mislabelling of

                                              specimens



                                                through error or falsification. Some of these were

                                              accepted



                                                into the literature and passed on in subsequent



                                                publications. Others were dismissed and later proved
                                              to

                                              be



                                                true when subsequent individuals of the species
                                              were

                                              found.



                                               



                                                There are obviously a number of factors



                                                that need to be considered. These could include
                                              positive

                                              ID



                                                of a species, number of people observing it,
                                              supporting



                                                specimens or photos, habitat seen, distance from
                                              nearest



                                                known record, weather conditions, possibility of

                                              escapees.



                                               



                                                The birding community has been dealing



                                                with all such records through the establishment of
                                              rare

                                              bird



                                                record committees at different levels (regional,

                                              provincial,



                                                national, continental). Is it time the butterfly

                                              community



                                                consider forming its own such committees. I know we
                                              have



                                                peer review opportunities for follow up to
                                              important



                                                sightings and we have vetting mechansims for
                                              electronic



                                                databasing of observations. However, so does the
                                              birding



                                                community. It would only be those very unusual and

                                              debatable



                                                records that would be considered by a committee.This
                                              is

                                              how



                                                the birding community handles it under established



                                                guidelines.



                                               



                                                These are my initial thoughts on this



                                                issue. Happy to hear any comments or suggestions.



                                               



                                                Cheers



                                               



                                                Peter



                                               



                                               



                                                ________________________________



                                                From: "rick cavasin rrrcav@...



                                                [butterfly_obs]"

                                              <butterfly_obs@...>



                                                To: "butterfly_obs@..."



                                                <butterfly_obs@...>



                                                Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2017 2:09



                                                AM



                                                Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs]



                                                Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)



                                               



                                               



                                                Hi All,



                                               



                                                I was in touch with Max today, I guess



                                                he hasn't been reading the list because he had
                                              heard

                                              that



                                                the species was seen at the Botanical Gardens, but

                                              wasn't



                                                aware that it had been posted to the Ottawa list.



                                               



                                                Max says this is not a species they



                                                ever raise at the Instectarium, and he strongly
                                              doubts

                                              that



                                                it could have come in on any plants - he says that
                                              most

                                              (



                                                all? ) of the plants used at the Botanical Gardens
                                              are

                                              grown



                                                on site.



                                               



                                                He's of the ( strong ) opinion that



                                                this is a legitimate stray.



                                               



                                                As Ross pointed out, it has happened



                                                before in Ontario.  Who knows how many times

                                              exotics



                                                like this pass through our area without there
                                              being

                                              anyone



                                                around to notice.



                                               



                                                Cheers, Rick



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                                On 29 August 2017 at 19:41, David



                                                Allison

                                              d_k_allison@...<mailto:d_k_allison@...>



                                                [butterfly_obs]

                                              <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>



                                                wrote:



                                               



                                                Hi Folks,



                                               



                                                I did consider the possibility of



                                                escape since it was so close to the insectarium which
                                              we

                                              had



                                                just visited. I pointed it out to a staff member
                                              who

                                              said



                                                that they don't usually have any butterflies
                                              being

                                              raised or



                                                bred but when they do it is only local ones such
                                              as



                                                Monarchs. Also they said they didn't have any
                                              live



                                                butterflies at this time. Staff I spoke to had
                                              never

                                              seen



                                                this one and it took a while to convince them it was
                                              even

                                              in



                                                the skipper family. Another lady came along shortly
                                              after

                                              us



                                                who had Rick's fold out butterfly guide. When she
                                              saw

                                              it



                                                wasn't in that guide she had a good camera and
                                              got lots

                                              of



                                                nice photos. Hopefully she will post them or provide
                                              them

                                              to



                                                someone.



                                               



                                                I didn't think to ask about tropical



                                                plants but they certainly have lots there although
                                              I

                                              don't



                                                know if they import them or raise them in one of
                                              their



                                                greenhouses on site from seed or previous year
                                              plants.



                                                Montreal obviously has a busy airport and shipping

                                              terminal



                                                so there are lots of possible sources in addition to
                                              an



                                                accidental stray.



                                               



                                                Thanks,



                                                David



                                               



                                                ________________________________



                                                From: "'Jones, Colin (MNRF)'

                                              colin.jones@...<mailto:colin.jones@...>



                                                [butterfly_obs]"

                                              <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>



                                                To:

                                              "butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>"



                                               
                                              <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>



                                                Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2017 10:00



                                                AM



                                                Subject: RE: [butterfly_obs]



                                                Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)



                                               



                                                Hi all,



                                               



                                                I just want to be clear that I'm not



                                                saying that this individual couldn't be a
                                              legitimate

                                              stray



                                                from the south. As Ross has pointed out there are

                                              records



                                                from S Ontario and elsewhere in the northeast.



                                               



                                                What I'm suggesting is that there is



                                                also a possibility that this individual has escaped
                                              from

                                              one



                                                of two museums known to rear insects...both of
                                              these



                                                facilities are immediately beside the Botanical
                                              Gardens.



                                               



                                                There is at least one record of a Blue



                                                Morpho from the Niagara Gorge - it's origin is
                                              surely

                                              from



                                                the Niagara Butterfly Conservatory so we know that
                                              these



                                                things can and do escape.



                                               



                                                I think that it is important to look at



                                                all of the possibilities. If, for example, either
                                              of

                                              these



                                                facilities does raise Long-tailed Skipper, then I

                                              don't



                                                think that we could rule out the possibility that
                                              this



                                                individual's origin is more likely to have been
                                              an

                                              escape.



                                               



                                                Also, as Rick has mentioned, there



                                                doesn't seem to be any kind of movement of
                                              this

                                              species



                                                northward this year which doesn't completely rule
                                              out

                                              the



                                                possibility of this being a stray but it does seem
                                              odd

                                              that



                                                one would show up even further north (a new
                                              northernmost



                                                record?) with few to no other records this year N
                                              of



                                                Tennessee/W Virginia.



                                               



                                                Cheers,



                                                Colin



                                               



                                                ______________________________ __



                                                From:

                                              butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>



                                               
                                              [butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>]



                                                Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2017 9:19 AM



                                                To:

                                              butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>



                                                Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs]



                                                Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                                I think Colin was the one who



                                                originally brought up the possibility of it being
                                              an



                                                escapee.



                                               



                                                The thought never really crossed my



                                                mind.



                                               



                                                On 29 August 2017 at 09:15, ross



                                                layberry

                                              rosslayberry@...<mailto:rosslayberry@...><mailto:r



                                               
                                              osslayberry@...<mailto:rosslayberry@...>>



                                                [butterfly_obs]

                                              <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><



                                                mailto:butterfly_obs@

                                              yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>>



                                                wrote:



                                               



                                               



                                                I am not sure why there is so much



                                                doubt about this record. It has been reported four
                                              times

                                              in



                                                Ontario, and in circumstances where it looks as if
                                              a

                                              small



                                                migration occured. There were two records in 1994,
                                              on

                                              August



                                                7 at Point Pelee, and on August 18 at Ojibway
                                              Prairie,



                                                Windsor. And there were two, both photographed, in
                                              2012,

                                              on



                                                September 1 at Princess Point, Hamilton, and on
                                              October 4

                                              in



                                                High Park, Toronto. At least this last one can be
                                              seen

                                              on



                                                eButterfly.



                                               



                                                oss



                                                ------------------------------



                                                --------------



                                                On Tue, 8/29/17, Gillian Mastromatteo



                                               
                                              sedge.sprite@...<mailto:sedge.sprite@...><mailto:



                                               
                                              sedge.sprite@...<mailto:sedge.sprite@...>>



                                                [butterfly_obs]

                                              <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><



                                                mailto:butterfly_obs@

                                              yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>>



                                                wrote:



                                               



                                                Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs]



                                                Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)



                                                To:

                                              "butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><



                                                mailto:butterfly_obs@

                                              yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>"



                                               
                                              <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><



                                                mailto:butterfly_obs@

                                              yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>>



                                                Received: Tuesday, August 29, 2017,



                                                6:12 AM



                                               



                                               



                                                #yiv6336530002 #yiv6336530002 --



                                               



                                               



                                                #yiv6336530002



                                                .yiv6336530002ygrp-photo- title{



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                                                          a,



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                                                color:#0000ff;text-decoration: none;}



                                                #yiv6336530002



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                                Hi everyone,



                                                If the biodome doesn't have



                                                these butterflies, and if there has



                                                been no talk of anyone



                                                seeing them between Montreal and their



                                                breeding grounds,



                                                could it be possible that it came in as



                                                an egg on some



                                                tropical plants brought in to the



                                                biodome?  I'm not



                                                sure if it does still bring in foreign



                                                plants, but after



                                                reading horror stories of spiders and



                                                other insects coming



                                                into the country on produce, why not an



                                                egg?



                                                Cheers,



                                                Gillian



                                                On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at



                                                10:13 PM, rick cavasin

                                              rrrcav@...<mailto:rrrcav@...><mailto:rrrcav



                                                @...<mailto:rrrcav@...>>



                                                [butterfly_obs]

                                              <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><



                                                mailto:butterfly_obs@

                                              yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>>



                                                wrote:



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                                      I doubt the



                                                biodome breeds this



                                                species, but Max can confirm that.



                                                There's not a whole lot I can do



                                                with these photos - the resolution is



                                                too low.  It does



                                                look like a Long Tailed Skipper. 



                                                I hadn't heard that



                                                the species was heading North . 



                                                Usually there's talk



                                                about this kind of thing down in



                                                Maryland.



                                                Cheers, Rick



                                                On 28 August 2017 at 21:11,



                                                'Jones, Colin (MNRF)'

                                              colin.jones@...<mailto:colin.jones@...><mailto:



                                               
                                              colin.jones@...<mailto:colin.jones@...>>



                                                [butterfly_obs]

                                              <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><



                                                mailto:butterfly_obs@

                                              yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>>



                                                wrote:



                                                Hi all,



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                                Very interesting record!



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                                My first question would be does either



                                                the Biodome or the



                                                Montreal Insectarium raise Long-tailed



                                                Skippers? If the



                                                answer is yes, then the origin of this



                                                individual is



                                                suspect.



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                                If the answer is no, then it's more



                                                likley that this



                                                individual is a stray from breeding



                                                grounds in the south.



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                                Cheers,



                                               



                                                Colin



                                               



                                                ______________________________



                                                __________



                                               



                                                From:

                                              butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><



                                                mailto:butterfly_obs@

                                              yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>



                                               
                                              [butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><



                                                mailto:butterfly_obs@

                                              yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>]



                                               



                                                Sent: Monday, August 28, 2017 8:38 PM



                                               



                                                To:

                                              butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><



                                                mailto:butterfly_obs@

                                              yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>



                                               



                                                Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs]



                                                Long-Tailed Skipper?



                                                (Montreal)



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                                Hi, David,



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                                I agree with your identification. But I



                                                think that Rick



                                                Cavasin will be able to make the photos



                                                clearer. I am sure



                                                that Max will be excited about it, too,



                                                a first record for



                                                Quebec. Perhaps you. or Rick, will be



                                                able to submit it to



                                                eButterfly, for Max.



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                                Ross



                                               



                                                ------------------------------



                                                --------------



                                               



                                                On Mon, 8/28/17, David Allison

                                              d_k_allison@...<mailto:d_k_allison@...><mailto:d_



                                               
                                              k_allison@...<mailto:d_k_allison@...>>



                                                [butterfly_obs]

                                              <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><



                                                mailto:butterfly_obs@

                                              yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>>



                                                wrote:



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                                Subject: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed



                                                Skipper? (Montreal)



                                               



                                                To: "Ottawa Butterflies"

                                              <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><



                                                mailto:butterfly_obs@

                                              yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>>



                                               



                                                Received: Monday, August 28, 2017, 7:51



                                                PM



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                                Hi



                                               



                                                Folks,



                                               



                                                My wife and I took the kids to the



                                                biodome in



                                               



                                                Montreal yesterday and stopped by the



                                                Botanical Gardens



                                                this



                                               



                                                morning to see the flowers just before



                                                coming home. While



                                                we



                                               



                                                were there, in addition to the usual



                                                butterfly suspects,



                                                we



                                               



                                                got some really good looks at what I am



                                                fairly sure is a



                                               



                                                Long-Tailed Skipper. Sadly our camera



                                                had died so we had



                                                to



                                               



                                                try and get photos on our ancient



                                                flip-phone.



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                                Please see the attached.



                                               



                                                Thanks,David



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                                ------------------------------ ------



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                                ------------------------------ ------



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                                ------------------------------ ------



                                               



                                               



                                               



                                                Yahoo Groups Links



                                               



                                               



                                               



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                                            • ARNET SHEPPARD
                                              Good discussion. In general, I support the idea of acommittee. It would serve to referee an activity that (to be frank,like birding) also has a “sporting”
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Sep 1 2:28 PM
                                                Good discussion.

                                                In general, I support the idea of a committee. It would serve to referee an activity that (to be frank, like birding) also has a “sporting” component. It might discourage some inaccurate, casual reporting, but more importantly I think it would guide new entrants and raise standards for reporting.

                                                That said, I am also sympathetic to Ross's point of view, especially when it comes to the question of the most extreme extra-limital observations and whether a committee can actually add much new value to the present deliberations. Regardless of the committee, professionals and serious naturalists will follow their own judgment, and act accordingly. And as we have seen, opinions can differ markedly.

                                                The question on my mind is, even with a photo or specimen, how much weight (scientific or otherwise) can we really put on an isolated observation of this kind? Butterflies fly, but as people have mentioned, there are many other ways they can travel distances. A committee might be able to form a consensus around likelihood, but the record cannot truly be validated, and probably should always come with a big asterisk, until some kind of pattern emerges.

                                                a. 
                                                 


                                                On Friday, September 1, 2017 11:28 AM, "ross layberry rosslayberry@... [butterfly_obs]" <butterfly_obs@...> wrote:


                                                 

                                                Hi, Peter,

                                                I always forget that you are not a member of the TEA. But two of these species have been covered in depth in TEA publications. There is a five-page article about the Florida Duskywing in Ontario Lepidoptera 2015, pages 21 to 25. There is a 1.5 page article on the Peacock in Ontario Insects 20:1, pages 6 and 7, and another page and a bit discussing whether it should be accepted into the Ontario fauna in Ontario Lepidoptera 2014, pages 81 and 82.

                                                Ross
                                                --------------------------------------------
                                                On Fri, 9/1/17, Judy and Peter Hall halljp@... [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...> wrote:

                                                Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)
                                                To: "butterfly_obs@..." <butterfly_obs@...>
                                                Received: Friday, September 1, 2017, 8:36 AM























                                                Actually
                                                Ross, it appears to me that you just proved my point
                                                entirely. Each of the examples that you responded to, as far
                                                as I can determine, were decided upon largely by single
                                                individuals or individuals unnamed. Each of the decisions,
                                                which involve first records for Ontario and/or Canada,
                                                appear to still have concerns surrounding them, as you
                                                indicated you have and I also seriously have, with no means
                                                to settle the questions.
                                                The
                                                critical point is that all such very unusual and important
                                                sightings should be placed into an open process that would
                                                require a detailed description of the sighting for future
                                                reference that would go to a recognized and named group of
                                                specialists. If the TEA, for example, sees itself as the
                                                arbiter of such records for Ontario then that should be
                                                recognized and have a process around it. 

                                                I will be
                                                out of town for the next few days, but hope others will have
                                                the chance to pitch in with their thoughts. I look forward
                                                to seeing them.
                                                Peter



                                                From: "ross
                                                layberry rosslayberry@... [butterfly_obs]"
                                                <butterfly_obs@...>

                                                To:
                                                butterfly_obs@...
                                                Sent: Thursday, August
                                                31, 2017 7:18 PM
                                                Subject: Re:
                                                [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)


                                                 









                                                Hi, Peter,



                                                   I just do not see what a committee could do
                                                beyond what has already been done. I am familiar with four
                                                of your examples; I had never heard of the Ceraunus Blue
                                                "record", and would love to see any information
                                                available about it.



                                                  The Florida Duskywing passed through several notable
                                                collections, and was examined over the course of at least
                                                fifty years by just about every prominent butterfly expert
                                                in North America, all of them referring to the specimen
                                                caught by J. Alston Moffat at Hamilton, Ont. He was not just
                                                an unknown; he was a very well-respected member of the
                                                Entomological Society of Ontario and contributed many,
                                                perhaps hundreds of article and notes to its publications.
                                                The specimen is still being studied; recently samples were
                                                taken for DNA comparison with others in the genus. The TEA
                                                decided to list it as a valid addition to the Ontario
                                                Butterfly list; how could we not?



                                                   The Lyside Sulphur, I believe, was found dead
                                                by a student of Gard Otis at Guelph. We corresponded briefly
                                                about it, and as far as I know Gard never claimed that it
                                                was a genuine record; in fact, I am not sure it was even
                                                identified, at the time. So we did not list it.



                                                   The European Peacock was certainly photographed
                                                in southern Ontario in 2014. Two people from the TEA visited
                                                the photographer and saw the spot where the photos had been
                                                taken. But there was some question that the butterfly may
                                                have "hitched a ride" there on a truck from
                                                Montreal, and it was decided that we not list the butterfly
                                                as a legitimate Ontario species. I did not agree with this
                                                reasoning, nor with that decision.



                                                   The Diana Fritillary record is one that I
                                                found on BAMONA. It was seen in a garden by a science
                                                teacher who regularly photographed birds there. She
                                                recognised it immediately and ran inside for a camera, but
                                                was too late. She verified the observation by referring to a
                                                photo in a butterfly book, an easy identification as there
                                                is nothing anything like it in the area. However, lacking
                                                the photo, the TEA did not recognise it as a valid record.
                                                Interestingly, the new book on Butterflies of Ontario and
                                                Eastern Canada, by John Acorn, recognised both this species,
                                                and the Peacock.



                                                So as you see, these four examples of rare species were
                                                dealt with efficiently, and the butterfly community seems to
                                                accept them. What more could a committee do?



                                                Ross



                                                --------------------------------------------

                                                On Thu, 8/31/17, Judy and Peter Hall halljp@...
                                                [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...>
                                                wrote:



                                                Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper?
                                                (Montreal)

                                                To: "butterfly_obs@..."
                                                <butterfly_obs@...>

                                                Received: Thursday, August 31, 2017, 4:50 PM





















                                                        

























                                                Hi

                                                Ross:

                                                I

                                                certainly did not intend for my suggestion of rare
                                                butterfly

                                                records committees to become controversial. I welcome
                                                all

                                                opinions. I only suggested it as I was reminded that
                                                there

                                                are a number of Ontario butterfly records that appear to
                                                me

                                                to still be 'outstanding'.

                                                You say

                                                you don't see any problems. As you put it, 'If
                                                it

                                                ain't broke, don't fix it' But I personally

                                                still have a number of issues with supposed Ontario
                                                records

                                                that would be firsts for the province. Off the top of my

                                                head I would list:

                                                Florida

                                                Duskywing from a specimen record found at the Carnegie

                                                Museum in Pittsburg that is labelled Hamilton, Ontario,

                                                1877. This is a species that is found only in extreme

                                                southern Florida and is not known to

                                                wander:

                                                Lyside

                                                Sulphur from a dead specimen found on the grounds at the

                                                University of Guelph in 2011. It was presumed to be a
                                                stray

                                                 but why couldn't it have fallen off a vehicle
                                                that

                                                had driven from the southern US where it is

                                                resident:

                                                Ceraunus

                                                Blue from a specimen reported to be taken at the Schreck

                                                Nature Reserve north of Kingston by a group from

                                                Guelph:

                                                European

                                                Peacock photographed in a backyard down near London in
                                                May

                                                2014. Could be a stray from Quebec but was it checked if

                                                anybody had reared them in the area:

                                                Diana

                                                Fritillary reported to BAMONA from a sighting in 2011 in
                                                SW

                                                Ontario but with no photo or specimen to

                                                verify.

                                                All of

                                                these records would be important additions to the
                                                Ontario

                                                butterfly fauna. I am not offering them up for further

                                                discussion now but to illustrate what I see as a problem.
                                                It

                                                would have been very useful if they had been written up
                                                and

                                                carefully studied and all supporting documentation

                                                gathered.

                                                Every time

                                                such sightings (often with no photos) are reported into
                                                the

                                                birding community, the observer (or discoverer for old

                                                records) is asked to file a full description of the
                                                sighting

                                                with diagnostic features noted and all contextual
                                                materials

                                                submitted (photos if available, weather conditions,
                                                habitats

                                                seen, possibilities of escapees, etc.). This then becomes
                                                a

                                                permanent record of the sighting for future

                                                reference.

                                                At

                                                present, as far as I know, such butterfly sightings are

                                                often skimpily reported and then it is up to individuals

                                                later to decide if they want to believe them or not. I
                                                am

                                                guilty of that myself in the writing of the butterflies
                                                of

                                                Canada and the Ontario field guide but we are offered no

                                                alternative in making our decisions in what to

                                                include.

                                                By the

                                                way, I am not suggesting a bureaucracy. This could all
                                                be

                                                handled by a committee of volunteers using the internet
                                                and

                                                only as required with new reports of unusual

                                                butterflies.

                                                Anyway, I

                                                still think its a good idea even if all don't

                                                agree.

                                                Cheers

                                                Peter



                                                    

                                                 

                                                From:

                                                "ross layberry rosslayberry@...

                                                [butterfly_obs]"
                                                <butterfly_obs@...>

                                                  To:

                                                butterfly_obs@...

                                                Cc: alan

                                                macnaughton <amacnaug@...>; Glenn
                                                Richardson

                                                <glennr@...>

                                                  Sent:

                                                Thursday, August 31, 2017 1:27 PM

                                                  Subject: RE:

                                                [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)

                                                   



                                                 







                                                  





                                                    

                                                      

                                                      

                                                       Hi, Colin,

                                                Peter,







                                                I do not see any problems that we are having right
                                                now.  The

                                                one possibly "endangered" species in Ontario,
                                                the

                                                Mottled Duskywing, has been protected as well as is

                                                possible, by informal discussion and agreements between
                                                all

                                                interested parties. I do not agree that another layer of

                                                bureaucracy is needed to "impose on" such

                                                interested parties. I can see that Peter and Colin are

                                                likely to feel differently: Peter worked for the federal

                                                government all his life and Colin does the same today
                                                with

                                                the provincial government. But I don't think that
                                                their

                                                opinions are typical among butterfly enthusiasts; we do
                                                not

                                                need, nor want, to be imposed upon.







                                                I think we should stick with the old adage: if it
                                                ain't

                                                broke, don't fix it!







                                                Ross



                                                --------------------------------------------



                                                On Thu, 8/31/17, 'Jones, Colin (MNRF)'

                                                colin.jones@... [butterfly_obs]

                                                <butterfly_obs@...> wrote:







                                                Subject: RE: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper?

                                                (Montreal)



                                                  To: "butterfly_obs@..."

                                                <butterfly_obs@...>



                                                  Received: Thursday, August 31, 2017, 12:27 PM



                                                 



                                                  Hi Peter,



                                                 



                                                 



                                                 



                                                  I wholeheartedly agree with you that a



                                                  committee approach to reviewing records of
                                                exceptional



                                                  rarities is an excellent idea and one that is long

                                                overdue



                                                  in Ontario. I've been suggesting to the TEA for
                                                well

                                                over a



                                                  decade that it would be very worthwhile to set one
                                                up.



                                                 



                                                 



                                                 



                                                  All the best,



                                                 



                                                  Colin



                                                 



                                                 



                                                 



                                                  ________________________________



                                                 



                                                  From: butterfly_obs@...



                                                  [butterfly_obs@...]



                                                  Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2017 3:26



                                                  PM



                                                  To: butterfly_obs@...



                                                  Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs]



                                                  Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)



                                                 



                                                 



                                                 



                                                  Hi folks:



                                                 



                                                  I have been following this string of



                                                  e-mails on the L-t Skipper in Montreal with interest
                                                as

                                                it



                                                  raises the question of when do you accept, or not,
                                                a

                                                record



                                                  of a rare or stray species. This can be important
                                                when

                                                you



                                                  consider such things as regional, provincial,
                                                national



                                                  checklists and possible protection mechanisms for
                                                species

                                                at



                                                  risk. It will also become more important as
                                                species

                                                continue



                                                  to expand their known ranges due to climate
                                                change.



                                                 



                                                  I am aware of a number of noteworthy



                                                  records in Ontario and Quebec that were questionable
                                                at

                                                the



                                                  time for a variety of reasons and never really
                                                resolved.



                                                  Some were sightings with no validating specimen or

                                                photo.



                                                  Some were the result of possible mislabelling of

                                                specimens



                                                  through error or falsification. Some of these were

                                                accepted



                                                  into the literature and passed on in subsequent



                                                  publications. Others were dismissed and later proved
                                                to

                                                be



                                                  true when subsequent individuals of the species
                                                were

                                                found.



                                                 



                                                  There are obviously a number of factors



                                                  that need to be considered. These could include
                                                positive

                                                ID



                                                  of a species, number of people observing it,
                                                supporting



                                                  specimens or photos, habitat seen, distance from
                                                nearest



                                                  known record, weather conditions, possibility of

                                                escapees.



                                                 



                                                  The birding community has been dealing



                                                  with all such records through the establishment of
                                                rare

                                                bird



                                                  record committees at different levels (regional,

                                                provincial,



                                                  national, continental). Is it time the butterfly

                                                community



                                                  consider forming its own such committees. I know we
                                                have



                                                  peer review opportunities for follow up to
                                                important



                                                  sightings and we have vetting mechansims for
                                                electronic



                                                  databasing of observations. However, so does the
                                                birding



                                                  community. It would only be those very unusual and

                                                debatable



                                                  records that would be considered by a committee.This
                                                is

                                                how



                                                  the birding community handles it under established



                                                  guidelines.



                                                 



                                                  These are my initial thoughts on this



                                                  issue. Happy to hear any comments or suggestions.



                                                 



                                                  Cheers



                                                 



                                                  Peter



                                                 



                                                 



                                                  ________________________________



                                                  From: "rick cavasin rrrcav@...



                                                  [butterfly_obs]"

                                                <butterfly_obs@...>



                                                  To: "butterfly_obs@..."



                                                  <butterfly_obs@...>



                                                  Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2017 2:09



                                                  AM



                                                  Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs]



                                                  Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)



                                                 



                                                 



                                                  Hi All,



                                                 



                                                  I was in touch with Max today, I guess



                                                  he hasn't been reading the list because he had
                                                heard

                                                that



                                                  the species was seen at the Botanical Gardens, but

                                                wasn't



                                                  aware that it had been posted to the Ottawa list.



                                                 



                                                  Max says this is not a species they



                                                  ever raise at the Instectarium, and he strongly
                                                doubts

                                                that



                                                  it could have come in on any plants - he says that
                                                most

                                                (



                                                  all? ) of the plants used at the Botanical Gardens
                                                are

                                                grown



                                                  on site.



                                                 



                                                  He's of the ( strong ) opinion that



                                                  this is a legitimate stray.



                                                 



                                                  As Ross pointed out, it has happened



                                                  before in Ontario.  Who knows how many times

                                                exotics



                                                  like this pass through our area without there
                                                being

                                                anyone



                                                  around to notice.



                                                 



                                                  Cheers, Rick



                                                 



                                                 



                                                 



                                                  On 29 August 2017 at 19:41, David



                                                  Allison

                                                d_k_allison@...<mailto:d_k_allison@...>



                                                  [butterfly_obs]

                                                <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>



                                                  wrote:



                                                 



                                                  Hi Folks,



                                                 



                                                  I did consider the possibility of



                                                  escape since it was so close to the insectarium which
                                                we

                                                had



                                                  just visited. I pointed it out to a staff member
                                                who

                                                said



                                                  that they don't usually have any butterflies
                                                being

                                                raised or



                                                  bred but when they do it is only local ones such
                                                as



                                                  Monarchs. Also they said they didn't have any
                                                live



                                                  butterflies at this time. Staff I spoke to had
                                                never

                                                seen



                                                  this one and it took a while to convince them it was
                                                even

                                                in



                                                  the skipper family. Another lady came along shortly
                                                after

                                                us



                                                  who had Rick's fold out butterfly guide. When she
                                                saw

                                                it



                                                  wasn't in that guide she had a good camera and
                                                got lots

                                                of



                                                  nice photos. Hopefully she will post them or provide
                                                them

                                                to



                                                  someone.



                                                 



                                                  I didn't think to ask about tropical



                                                  plants but they certainly have lots there although
                                                I

                                                don't



                                                  know if they import them or raise them in one of
                                                their



                                                  greenhouses on site from seed or previous year
                                                plants.



                                                  Montreal obviously has a busy airport and shipping

                                                terminal



                                                  so there are lots of possible sources in addition to
                                                an



                                                  accidental stray.



                                                 



                                                  Thanks,



                                                  David



                                                 



                                                  ________________________________



                                                  From: "'Jones, Colin (MNRF)'

                                                colin.jones@...<mailto:colin.jones@...>



                                                  [butterfly_obs]"

                                                <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>



                                                  To:

                                                "butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>"



                                                 
                                                <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>



                                                  Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2017 10:00



                                                  AM



                                                  Subject: RE: [butterfly_obs]



                                                  Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)



                                                 



                                                  Hi all,



                                                 



                                                  I just want to be clear that I'm not



                                                  saying that this individual couldn't be a
                                                legitimate

                                                stray



                                                  from the south. As Ross has pointed out there are

                                                records



                                                  from S Ontario and elsewhere in the northeast.



                                                 



                                                  What I'm suggesting is that there is



                                                  also a possibility that this individual has escaped
                                                from

                                                one



                                                  of two museums known to rear insects...both of
                                                these



                                                  facilities are immediately beside the Botanical
                                                Gardens.



                                                 



                                                  There is at least one record of a Blue



                                                  Morpho from the Niagara Gorge - it's origin is
                                                surely

                                                from



                                                  the Niagara Butterfly Conservatory so we know that
                                                these



                                                  things can and do escape.



                                                 



                                                  I think that it is important to look at



                                                  all of the possibilities. If, for example, either
                                                of

                                                these



                                                  facilities does raise Long-tailed Skipper, then I

                                                don't



                                                  think that we could rule out the possibility that
                                                this



                                                  individual's origin is more likely to have been
                                                an

                                                escape.



                                                 



                                                  Also, as Rick has mentioned, there



                                                  doesn't seem to be any kind of movement of
                                                this

                                                species



                                                  northward this year which doesn't completely rule
                                                out

                                                the



                                                  possibility of this being a stray but it does seem
                                                odd

                                                that



                                                  one would show up even further north (a new
                                                northernmost



                                                  record?) with few to no other records this year N
                                                of



                                                  Tennessee/W Virginia.



                                                 



                                                  Cheers,



                                                  Colin



                                                 



                                                  ______________________________ __



                                                  From:

                                                butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>



                                                 
                                                [butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>]



                                                  Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2017 9:19 AM



                                                  To:

                                                butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>



                                                  Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs]



                                                  Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)



                                                 



                                                 



                                                 



                                                  I think Colin was the one who



                                                  originally brought up the possibility of it being
                                                an



                                                  escapee.



                                                 



                                                  The thought never really crossed my



                                                  mind.



                                                 



                                                  On 29 August 2017 at 09:15, ross



                                                  layberry

                                                rosslayberry@...<mailto:rosslayberry@...><mailto:r



                                                 
                                                osslayberry@...<mailto:rosslayberry@...>>



                                                  [butterfly_obs]

                                                <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><



                                                  mailto:butterfly_obs@

                                                yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>>



                                                  wrote:



                                                 



                                                 



                                                  I am not sure why there is so much



                                                  doubt about this record. It has been reported four
                                                times

                                                in



                                                  Ontario, and in circumstances where it looks as if
                                                a

                                                small



                                                  migration occured. There were two records in 1994,
                                                on

                                                August



                                                  7 at Point Pelee, and on August 18 at Ojibway
                                                Prairie,



                                                  Windsor. And there were two, both photographed, in
                                                2012,

                                                on



                                                  September 1 at Princess Point, Hamilton, and on
                                                October 4

                                                in



                                                  High Park, Toronto. At least this last one can be
                                                seen

                                                on



                                                  eButterfly.



                                                 



                                                  oss



                                                  ------------------------------



                                                  --------------



                                                  On Tue, 8/29/17, Gillian Mastromatteo



                                                 
                                                sedge.sprite@...<mailto:sedge.sprite@...><mailto:



                                                 
                                                sedge.sprite@...<mailto:sedge.sprite@...>>



                                                  [butterfly_obs]

                                                <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><



                                                  mailto:butterfly_obs@

                                                yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>>



                                                  wrote:



                                                 



                                                  Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs]



                                                  Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)



                                                  To:

                                                "butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><



                                                  mailto:butterfly_obs@

                                                yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>"



                                                 
                                                <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><



                                                  mailto:butterfly_obs@

                                                yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>>



                                                  Received: Tuesday, August 29, 2017,



                                                  6:12 AM



                                                 



                                                 



                                                  #yiv6336530002 #yiv6336530002 --



                                                 



                                                 



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                                                &n

                                                (Message over 64 KB, truncated)
                                              • Judy and Peter Hall
                                                Hi all: I m back from Toronto and wanted to thank Arnet, Rick, Colin and Ross for their comments on my suggestion to form a rare butterfly records committee
                                                Message 23 of 23 , Sep 5 7:15 AM
                                                  Hi all:

                                                  I'm back from Toronto and wanted to thank Arnet, Rick, Colin and Ross for their comments on my suggestion to form a rare butterfly records committee for Ontario (or even our region) as the birders have.

                                                  It appears we have in our small group differing views on this suggestion and some good points were made about the usefulness, pros and cons, of such a committee. It appears there is no overwhelming consensus at this time nor an obvious mechanism to move forward so I will be ending here (for now anyway).

                                                  Cheers

                                                  Peter





                                                  From: "ARNET SHEPPARD axs1@... [butterfly_obs]" <butterfly_obs@...>
                                                  To: "butterfly_obs@..." <butterfly_obs@...>
                                                  Sent: Friday, September 1, 2017 5:28 PM
                                                  Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)

                                                   
                                                  Good discussion.

                                                  In general, I support the idea of a committee. It would serve to referee an activity that (to be frank, like birding) also has a “sporting” component. It might discourage some inaccurate, casual reporting, but more importantly I think it would guide new entrants and raise standards for reporting.

                                                  That said, I am also sympathetic to Ross's point of view, especially when it comes to the question of the most extreme extra-limital observations and whether a committee can actually add much new value to the present deliberations. Regardless of the committee, professionals and serious naturalists will follow their own judgment, and act accordingly. And as we have seen, opinions can differ markedly.

                                                  The question on my mind is, even with a photo or specimen, how much weight (scientific or otherwise) can we really put on an isolated observation of this kind? Butterflies fly, but as people have mentioned, there are many other ways they can travel distances. A committee might be able to form a consensus around likelihood, but the record cannot truly be validated, and probably should always come with a big asterisk, until some kind of pattern emerges.

                                                  a. 
                                                   


                                                  On Friday, September 1, 2017 11:28 AM, "ross layberry rosslayberry@... [butterfly_obs]" <butterfly_obs@...> wrote:


                                                   

                                                  Hi, Peter,

                                                  I always forget that you are not a member of the TEA. But two of these species have been covered in depth in TEA publications. There is a five-page article about the Florida Duskywing in Ontario Lepidoptera 2015, pages 21 to 25. There is a 1.5 page article on the Peacock in Ontario Insects 20:1, pages 6 and 7, and another page and a bit discussing whether it should be accepted into the Ontario fauna in Ontario Lepidoptera 2014, pages 81 and 82.

                                                  Ross
                                                  --------------------------------------------
                                                  On Fri, 9/1/17, Judy and Peter Hall halljp@... [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...> wrote:

                                                  Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)
                                                  To: "butterfly_obs@..." <butterfly_obs@...>
                                                  Received: Friday, September 1, 2017, 8:36 AM























                                                  Actually
                                                  Ross, it appears to me that you just proved my point
                                                  entirely. Each of the examples that you responded to, as far
                                                  as I can determine, were decided upon largely by single
                                                  individuals or individuals unnamed. Each of the decisions,
                                                  which involve first records for Ontario and/or Canada,
                                                  appear to still have concerns surrounding them, as you
                                                  indicated you have and I also seriously have, with no means
                                                  to settle the questions.
                                                  The
                                                  critical point is that all such very unusual and important
                                                  sightings should be placed into an open process that would
                                                  require a detailed description of the sighting for future
                                                  reference that would go to a recognized and named group of
                                                  specialists. If the TEA, for example, sees itself as the
                                                  arbiter of such records for Ontario then that should be
                                                  recognized and have a process around it. 

                                                  I will be
                                                  out of town for the next few days, but hope others will have
                                                  the chance to pitch in with their thoughts. I look forward
                                                  to seeing them.
                                                  Peter



                                                  From: "ross
                                                  layberry rosslayberry@... [butterfly_obs]"
                                                  <butterfly_obs@...>

                                                  To:
                                                  butterfly_obs@...
                                                  Sent: Thursday, August
                                                  31, 2017 7:18 PM
                                                  Subject: Re:
                                                  [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)


                                                   









                                                  Hi, Peter,



                                                     I just do not see what a committee could do
                                                  beyond what has already been done. I am familiar with four
                                                  of your examples; I had never heard of the Ceraunus Blue
                                                  "record", and would love to see any information
                                                  available about it.



                                                    The Florida Duskywing passed through several notable
                                                  collections, and was examined over the course of at least
                                                  fifty years by just about every prominent butterfly expert
                                                  in North America, all of them referring to the specimen
                                                  caught by J. Alston Moffat at Hamilton, Ont. He was not just
                                                  an unknown; he was a very well-respected member of the
                                                  Entomological Society of Ontario and contributed many,
                                                  perhaps hundreds of article and notes to its publications.
                                                  The specimen is still being studied; recently samples were
                                                  taken for DNA comparison with others in the genus. The TEA
                                                  decided to list it as a valid addition to the Ontario
                                                  Butterfly list; how could we not?



                                                     The Lyside Sulphur, I believe, was found dead
                                                  by a student of Gard Otis at Guelph. We corresponded briefly
                                                  about it, and as far as I know Gard never claimed that it
                                                  was a genuine record; in fact, I am not sure it was even
                                                  identified, at the time. So we did not list it.



                                                     The European Peacock was certainly photographed
                                                  in southern Ontario in 2014. Two people from the TEA visited
                                                  the photographer and saw the spot where the photos had been
                                                  taken. But there was some question that the butterfly may
                                                  have "hitched a ride" there on a truck from
                                                  Montreal, and it was decided that we not list the butterfly
                                                  as a legitimate Ontario species. I did not agree with this
                                                  reasoning, nor with that decision.



                                                     The Diana Fritillary record is one that I
                                                  found on BAMONA. It was seen in a garden by a science
                                                  teacher who regularly photographed birds there. She
                                                  recognised it immediately and ran inside for a camera, but
                                                  was too late. She verified the observation by referring to a
                                                  photo in a butterfly book, an easy identification as there
                                                  is nothing anything like it in the area. However, lacking
                                                  the photo, the TEA did not recognise it as a valid record.
                                                  Interestingly, the new book on Butterflies of Ontario and
                                                  Eastern Canada, by John Acorn, recognised both this species,
                                                  and the Peacock.



                                                  So as you see, these four examples of rare species were
                                                  dealt with efficiently, and the butterfly community seems to
                                                  accept them. What more could a committee do?



                                                  Ross



                                                  --------------------------------------------

                                                  On Thu, 8/31/17, Judy and Peter Hall halljp@...
                                                  [butterfly_obs] <butterfly_obs@...>
                                                  wrote:



                                                  Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper?
                                                  (Montreal)

                                                  To: "butterfly_obs@..."
                                                  <butterfly_obs@...>

                                                  Received: Thursday, August 31, 2017, 4:50 PM





















                                                          

























                                                  Hi

                                                  Ross:

                                                  I

                                                  certainly did not intend for my suggestion of rare
                                                  butterfly

                                                  records committees to become controversial. I welcome
                                                  all

                                                  opinions. I only suggested it as I was reminded that
                                                  there

                                                  are a number of Ontario butterfly records that appear to
                                                  me

                                                  to still be 'outstanding'.

                                                  You say

                                                  you don't see any problems. As you put it, 'If
                                                  it

                                                  ain't broke, don't fix it' But I personally

                                                  still have a number of issues with supposed Ontario
                                                  records

                                                  that would be firsts for the province. Off the top of my

                                                  head I would list:

                                                  Florida

                                                  Duskywing from a specimen record found at the Carnegie

                                                  Museum in Pittsburg that is labelled Hamilton, Ontario,

                                                  1877. This is a species that is found only in extreme

                                                  southern Florida and is not known to

                                                  wander:

                                                  Lyside

                                                  Sulphur from a dead specimen found on the grounds at the

                                                  University of Guelph in 2011. It was presumed to be a
                                                  stray

                                                   but why couldn't it have fallen off a vehicle
                                                  that

                                                  had driven from the southern US where it is

                                                  resident:

                                                  Ceraunus

                                                  Blue from a specimen reported to be taken at the Schreck

                                                  Nature Reserve north of Kingston by a group from

                                                  Guelph:

                                                  European

                                                  Peacock photographed in a backyard down near London in
                                                  May

                                                  2014. Could be a stray from Quebec but was it checked if

                                                  anybody had reared them in the area:

                                                  Diana

                                                  Fritillary reported to BAMONA from a sighting in 2011 in
                                                  SW

                                                  Ontario but with no photo or specimen to

                                                  verify.

                                                  All of

                                                  these records would be important additions to the
                                                  Ontario

                                                  butterfly fauna. I am not offering them up for further

                                                  discussion now but to illustrate what I see as a problem.
                                                  It

                                                  would have been very useful if they had been written up
                                                  and

                                                  carefully studied and all supporting documentation

                                                  gathered.

                                                  Every time

                                                  such sightings (often with no photos) are reported into
                                                  the

                                                  birding community, the observer (or discoverer for old

                                                  records) is asked to file a full description of the
                                                  sighting

                                                  with diagnostic features noted and all contextual
                                                  materials

                                                  submitted (photos if available, weather conditions,
                                                  habitats

                                                  seen, possibilities of escapees, etc.). This then becomes
                                                  a

                                                  permanent record of the sighting for future

                                                  reference.

                                                  At

                                                  present, as far as I know, such butterfly sightings are

                                                  often skimpily reported and then it is up to individuals

                                                  later to decide if they want to believe them or not. I
                                                  am

                                                  guilty of that myself in the writing of the butterflies
                                                  of

                                                  Canada and the Ontario field guide but we are offered no

                                                  alternative in making our decisions in what to

                                                  include.

                                                  By the

                                                  way, I am not suggesting a bureaucracy. This could all
                                                  be

                                                  handled by a committee of volunteers using the internet
                                                  and

                                                  only as required with new reports of unusual

                                                  butterflies.

                                                  Anyway, I

                                                  still think its a good idea even if all don't

                                                  agree.

                                                  Cheers

                                                  Peter



                                                      

                                                   

                                                  From:

                                                  "ross layberry rosslayberry@...

                                                  [butterfly_obs]"
                                                  <butterfly_obs@...>

                                                    To:

                                                  butterfly_obs@...

                                                  Cc: alan

                                                  macnaughton <amacnaug@...>; Glenn
                                                  Richardson

                                                  <glennr@...>

                                                    Sent:

                                                  Thursday, August 31, 2017 1:27 PM

                                                    Subject: RE:

                                                  [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)

                                                     



                                                   







                                                    





                                                      

                                                        

                                                        

                                                         Hi, Colin,

                                                  Peter,







                                                  I do not see any problems that we are having right
                                                  now.  The

                                                  one possibly "endangered" species in Ontario,
                                                  the

                                                  Mottled Duskywing, has been protected as well as is

                                                  possible, by informal discussion and agreements between
                                                  all

                                                  interested parties. I do not agree that another layer of

                                                  bureaucracy is needed to "impose on" such

                                                  interested parties. I can see that Peter and Colin are

                                                  likely to feel differently: Peter worked for the federal

                                                  government all his life and Colin does the same today
                                                  with

                                                  the provincial government. But I don't think that
                                                  their

                                                  opinions are typical among butterfly enthusiasts; we do
                                                  not

                                                  need, nor want, to be imposed upon.







                                                  I think we should stick with the old adage: if it
                                                  ain't

                                                  broke, don't fix it!







                                                  Ross



                                                  --------------------------------------------



                                                  On Thu, 8/31/17, 'Jones, Colin (MNRF)'

                                                  colin.jones@... [butterfly_obs]

                                                  <butterfly_obs@...> wrote:







                                                  Subject: RE: [butterfly_obs] Long-Tailed Skipper?

                                                  (Montreal)



                                                    To: "butterfly_obs@..."

                                                  <butterfly_obs@...>



                                                    Received: Thursday, August 31, 2017, 12:27 PM



                                                   



                                                    Hi Peter,



                                                   



                                                   



                                                   



                                                    I wholeheartedly agree with you that a



                                                    committee approach to reviewing records of
                                                  exceptional



                                                    rarities is an excellent idea and one that is long

                                                  overdue



                                                    in Ontario. I've been suggesting to the TEA for
                                                  well

                                                  over a



                                                    decade that it would be very worthwhile to set one
                                                  up.



                                                   



                                                   



                                                   



                                                    All the best,



                                                   



                                                    Colin



                                                   



                                                   



                                                   



                                                    ________________________________



                                                   



                                                    From: butterfly_obs@...



                                                    [butterfly_obs@...]



                                                    Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2017 3:26



                                                    PM



                                                    To: butterfly_obs@...



                                                    Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs]



                                                    Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)



                                                   



                                                   



                                                   



                                                    Hi folks:



                                                   



                                                    I have been following this string of



                                                    e-mails on the L-t Skipper in Montreal with interest
                                                  as

                                                  it



                                                    raises the question of when do you accept, or not,
                                                  a

                                                  record



                                                    of a rare or stray species. This can be important
                                                  when

                                                  you



                                                    consider such things as regional, provincial,
                                                  national



                                                    checklists and possible protection mechanisms for
                                                  species

                                                  at



                                                    risk. It will also become more important as
                                                  species

                                                  continue



                                                    to expand their known ranges due to climate
                                                  change.



                                                   



                                                    I am aware of a number of noteworthy



                                                    records in Ontario and Quebec that were questionable
                                                  at

                                                  the



                                                    time for a variety of reasons and never really
                                                  resolved.



                                                    Some were sightings with no validating specimen or

                                                  photo.



                                                    Some were the result of possible mislabelling of

                                                  specimens



                                                    through error or falsification. Some of these were

                                                  accepted



                                                    into the literature and passed on in subsequent



                                                    publications. Others were dismissed and later proved
                                                  to

                                                  be



                                                    true when subsequent individuals of the species
                                                  were

                                                  found.



                                                   



                                                    There are obviously a number of factors



                                                    that need to be considered. These could include
                                                  positive

                                                  ID



                                                    of a species, number of people observing it,
                                                  supporting



                                                    specimens or photos, habitat seen, distance from
                                                  nearest



                                                    known record, weather conditions, possibility of

                                                  escapees.



                                                   



                                                    The birding community has been dealing



                                                    with all such records through the establishment of
                                                  rare

                                                  bird



                                                    record committees at different levels (regional,

                                                  provincial,



                                                    national, continental). Is it time the butterfly

                                                  community



                                                    consider forming its own such committees. I know we
                                                  have



                                                    peer review opportunities for follow up to
                                                  important



                                                    sightings and we have vetting mechansims for
                                                  electronic



                                                    databasing of observations. However, so does the
                                                  birding



                                                    community. It would only be those very unusual and

                                                  debatable



                                                    records that would be considered by a committee.This
                                                  is

                                                  how



                                                    the birding community handles it under established



                                                    guidelines.



                                                   



                                                    These are my initial thoughts on this



                                                    issue. Happy to hear any comments or suggestions.



                                                   



                                                    Cheers



                                                   



                                                    Peter



                                                   



                                                   



                                                    ________________________________



                                                    From: "rick cavasin rrrcav@...



                                                    [butterfly_obs]"

                                                  <butterfly_obs@...>



                                                    To: "butterfly_obs@..."



                                                    <butterfly_obs@...>



                                                    Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2017 2:09



                                                    AM



                                                    Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs]



                                                    Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)



                                                   



                                                   



                                                    Hi All,



                                                   



                                                    I was in touch with Max today, I guess



                                                    he hasn't been reading the list because he had
                                                  heard

                                                  that



                                                    the species was seen at the Botanical Gardens, but

                                                  wasn't



                                                    aware that it had been posted to the Ottawa list.



                                                   



                                                    Max says this is not a species they



                                                    ever raise at the Instectarium, and he strongly
                                                  doubts

                                                  that



                                                    it could have come in on any plants - he says that
                                                  most

                                                  (



                                                    all? ) of the plants used at the Botanical Gardens
                                                  are

                                                  grown



                                                    on site.



                                                   



                                                    He's of the ( strong ) opinion that



                                                    this is a legitimate stray.



                                                   



                                                    As Ross pointed out, it has happened



                                                    before in Ontario.  Who knows how many times

                                                  exotics



                                                    like this pass through our area without there
                                                  being

                                                  anyone



                                                    around to notice.



                                                   



                                                    Cheers, Rick



                                                   



                                                   



                                                   



                                                    On 29 August 2017 at 19:41, David



                                                    Allison

                                                  d_k_allison@...<mailto:d_k_allison@...>



                                                    [butterfly_obs]

                                                  <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>



                                                    wrote:



                                                   



                                                    Hi Folks,



                                                   



                                                    I did consider the possibility of



                                                    escape since it was so close to the insectarium which
                                                  we

                                                  had



                                                    just visited. I pointed it out to a staff member
                                                  who

                                                  said



                                                    that they don't usually have any butterflies
                                                  being

                                                  raised or



                                                    bred but when they do it is only local ones such
                                                  as



                                                    Monarchs. Also they said they didn't have any
                                                  live



                                                    butterflies at this time. Staff I spoke to had
                                                  never

                                                  seen



                                                    this one and it took a while to convince them it was
                                                  even

                                                  in



                                                    the skipper family. Another lady came along shortly
                                                  after

                                                  us



                                                    who had Rick's fold out butterfly guide. When she
                                                  saw

                                                  it



                                                    wasn't in that guide she had a good camera and
                                                  got lots

                                                  of



                                                    nice photos. Hopefully she will post them or provide
                                                  them

                                                  to



                                                    someone.



                                                   



                                                    I didn't think to ask about tropical



                                                    plants but they certainly have lots there although
                                                  I

                                                  don't



                                                    know if they import them or raise them in one of
                                                  their



                                                    greenhouses on site from seed or previous year
                                                  plants.



                                                    Montreal obviously has a busy airport and shipping

                                                  terminal



                                                    so there are lots of possible sources in addition to
                                                  an



                                                    accidental stray.



                                                   



                                                    Thanks,



                                                    David



                                                   



                                                    ________________________________



                                                    From: "'Jones, Colin (MNRF)'

                                                  colin.jones@...<mailto:colin.jones@...>



                                                    [butterfly_obs]"

                                                  <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>



                                                    To:

                                                  "butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>"



                                                   
                                                  <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>



                                                    Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2017 10:00



                                                    AM



                                                    Subject: RE: [butterfly_obs]



                                                    Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)



                                                   



                                                    Hi all,



                                                   



                                                    I just want to be clear that I'm not



                                                    saying that this individual couldn't be a
                                                  legitimate

                                                  stray



                                                    from the south. As Ross has pointed out there are

                                                  records



                                                    from S Ontario and elsewhere in the northeast.



                                                   



                                                    What I'm suggesting is that there is



                                                    also a possibility that this individual has escaped
                                                  from

                                                  one



                                                    of two museums known to rear insects...both of
                                                  these



                                                    facilities are immediately beside the Botanical
                                                  Gardens.



                                                   



                                                    There is at least one record of a Blue



                                                    Morpho from the Niagara Gorge - it's origin is
                                                  surely

                                                  from



                                                    the Niagara Butterfly Conservatory so we know that
                                                  these



                                                    things can and do escape.



                                                   



                                                    I think that it is important to look at



                                                    all of the possibilities. If, for example, either
                                                  of

                                                  these



                                                    facilities does raise Long-tailed Skipper, then I

                                                  don't



                                                    think that we could rule out the possibility that
                                                  this



                                                    individual's origin is more likely to have been
                                                  an

                                                  escape.



                                                   



                                                    Also, as Rick has mentioned, there



                                                    doesn't seem to be any kind of movement of
                                                  this

                                                  species



                                                    northward this year which doesn't completely rule
                                                  out

                                                  the



                                                    possibility of this being a stray but it does seem
                                                  odd

                                                  that



                                                    one would show up even further north (a new
                                                  northernmost



                                                    record?) with few to no other records this year N
                                                  of



                                                    Tennessee/W Virginia.



                                                   



                                                    Cheers,



                                                    Colin



                                                   



                                                    ______________________________ __



                                                    From:

                                                  butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>



                                                   
                                                  [butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>]



                                                    Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2017 9:19 AM



                                                    To:

                                                  butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>



                                                    Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs]



                                                    Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)



                                                   



                                                   



                                                   



                                                    I think Colin was the one who



                                                    originally brought up the possibility of it being
                                                  an



                                                    escapee.



                                                   



                                                    The thought never really crossed my



                                                    mind.



                                                   



                                                    On 29 August 2017 at 09:15, ross



                                                    layberry

                                                  rosslayberry@...<mailto:rosslayberry@...><mailto:r



                                                   
                                                  osslayberry@...<mailto:rosslayberry@...>>



                                                    [butterfly_obs]

                                                  <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><



                                                    mailto:butterfly_obs@

                                                  yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>>



                                                    wrote:



                                                   



                                                   



                                                    I am not sure why there is so much



                                                    doubt about this record. It has been reported four
                                                  times

                                                  in



                                                    Ontario, and in circumstances where it looks as if
                                                  a

                                                  small



                                                    migration occured. There were two records in 1994,
                                                  on

                                                  August



                                                    7 at Point Pelee, and on August 18 at Ojibway
                                                  Prairie,



                                                    Windsor. And there were two, both photographed, in
                                                  2012,

                                                  on



                                                    September 1 at Princess Point, Hamilton, and on
                                                  October 4

                                                  in



                                                    High Park, Toronto. At least this last one can be
                                                  seen

                                                  on



                                                    eButterfly.



                                                   



                                                    oss



                                                    ------------------------------



                                                    --------------



                                                    On Tue, 8/29/17, Gillian Mastromatteo



                                                   
                                                  sedge.sprite@...<mailto:sedge.sprite@...><mailto:



                                                   
                                                  sedge.sprite@...<mailto:sedge.sprite@...>>



                                                    [butterfly_obs]

                                                  <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><



                                                    mailto:butterfly_obs@

                                                  yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>>



                                                    wrote:



                                                   



                                                    Subject: Re: [butterfly_obs]



                                                    Long-Tailed Skipper? (Montreal)



                                                    To:

                                                  "butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><



                                                    mailto:butterfly_obs@

                                                  yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>"



                                                   
                                                  <butterfly_obs@...<mailto:butterfly_obs@...><



                                                    mailto:butterfly_obs@

                                                  yahoogroups.ca<mailto:butterfly_obs@...>>>



                                                    Received: Tuesday, August 29, 2017,



                                                    6:12 AM



                                                   



                                                   



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