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15427Re: [TGC] Re: [gaiapc] Vatican Workshop

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  • Don Chisholm
    9 Nov, 2017
      Well Luis, I guess our views on sex are different.  I can think of no reason for consenting adults to not have sex just for the pure pleasure of sex.  Yes, we are animals, but rational?  We seem to be on the cusp of self-extinction from not preventing more and more of us wanting a slice of the shirking pie.  Inflexible religions play a significant role in preventing responsible sex - i.e.: using birth control. 

      Luis, it's been an interesting exchange, but I don't think either of us will alter our views.  To agree to disagree sometimes leaves room for mutual cooperation on other matters. 
      And we have a lot of those to deal with!


      On 2017-11-09 8:00 PM, Luis Gutierrez ltg4263@... [gaiapc] wrote:
      Don, I never said that people should not have sex.  What I said is that people should have sex responsibly, meaning that both the man and the woman assume responsibility for the children they bring to the world.  We are rational animals, not just animals.  I know, it is a controversial subject.  The world would be much better if people understand that there is no free lunch in life, and this includes sexual relations.  This is my personal opinion, which I don't push on anyone, as I believe in freedom of conscience.  Hope no one is offended by me saying what I believe.


      On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 6:12 PM, Don Chisholm donchism@... [gaiapc] <gaiapc@...> wrote:

      On 2017-11-08 7:48 AM, Luis Gutierrez ltg4263@... [gaiapc] wrote:
      I know, but posted this because there are .  Some of the "solutions" seem naive to me, but apparently are reasonable to them.  This is a group of highly talented and awesomely learned people.  Could it be that we are missing something? 

      DC:  Luis, you pose an interesting question.  I think that what is being missed here is the deep and penetrating imprint of growing up in a religions environment for the, perhaps 80% of those who largely accept the doctrines - whichever brand, Catholic, Hindu or Muslim.   You are an example of a kind and intelligent person who goes to a great deal of effort to make this world a better place, but ......  you still oppose abortion.  In an email a few days ago you said: 
      While we must respect freedom of conscience, my take is that the solution is to foster responsible parenthood, not to foster irresponsible sexual relations by the illusion that pills and abortion can get us off the hook.  Both the boys and the girls must be held accountable.  The main problem is that, in most regions of the world, the boys can do it free of charge. >>

      For me, that is like asking horny young people to not have sex is like asking rivers not to flow - or something contrary to biological nature.  

      So for me it's not much of a stretch to (think) that I understand why <<
      so many brilliant minds in the Vatican academy>> skip over a few of the issues that are obvious to many other.  

      I suppose we all have blind spots.  Like most others, I don't know what mine are, but I don't deny they're there likely there!:-)


      These people cannot possibly be so misinformed as to think that population growth and energy density are irrelevant factors.  Are they just being doctrinaire?  Perhaps they think that we just have to keep struggling with the issues, doing what can be done without recurring to fixes that are not "good for people" based on their understanding of human nature?


      On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 2:17 AM, Steve Kurtz kurtzs@... [thegreatchange] <thegreatchange@yahoogroups. com> wrote:


      You know what those on these lists think! Few if any are optimists.


      On Nov 7, 2017, at 11:21 PM, Luis Gutierrez ltg4263@... [gaiapc] <gaiapc@...> wrote:

      FYI, this is the latest "green" wisdom coming from the Vatican:

      Declaration of Workshop on 
      Health of People, Health of Planet and Our Responsibility ~ 
      Climate Change, Air Pollution and Health

      Pontifical Academy of Sciences, Vatican City, 2-4 November 2017
      http://www.pas.va/content/acca demia/en/events/2017/health/ declaration.html

      Predictably, politically incorrect issues such as population growth and energy return on investment are not mentioned, so it is hard to understand how any of the "Proposed Solutions" can be feasible; but this is a good summary of the majority "optimistic consensus" endorsed by Pope Francis and many highly capable people.

      The minority "pessimistic consensus" is that, with world population still growing, and "clea n" energy alternatives being incapable of sustaining the load, the future is grim even if most people experience "ecological conversion."

      What do you think?


      Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
      Voltaire (1770)


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