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15590Re: [gaiapc] FW: The Movie "Killing Europe" has been cancelled

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  • Karl S North
    27 Nov, 2017

      You said: "I suppose you think that jihad is all about self-improvement". 

      What part of statements I made like "the rise of Islamic extremism from a tiny impotent minority to a threat" implies approval of jihadi fanatics? Imputing to me the opposite of the view that is obvious from such statements is not just weird, as Helmut said, but truly pathetic. In my experience, when people misrepresent the views of others, it's because they have nothing constructive to contribute to the discussion. 

      You said: "I would guess  that you have not read any of the Koran nor Hadith nor any non-milquetoast analysis of Islamic theology and therefore will never attribute any atrocities committed in the name of Islam to – well, gosh – the Islamic theology cited by the attackers." 

      Oh my dog, another straw man attack. Of course jihadis and all other practitioners of Islam and any other faith will cite sacred texts to justify the way they live their lives. But every group or individual will cite their interpretation. As a trained anthropologist, I have always taken an interest in the scriptural statements of many religions, and read them, including the Koran. But my training taught me to avoid the assumption, implicit in your "non-milquetoast analysis" remark, that there is only one correct interpretation of these documents. As must have been obvious even in your brief contact with Islamic society, different practitioners of Islam (or any religion) interpret such policy statements of beliefs and values in many different ways. Moreover, complicating the question of how the institution of religion works in any society, no matter what they say they believe, professed believers in every faith will in practice live their lives in a variety of ways, often in disregard of their stated beliefs.  

      Example: Unlike violent jihadis who follow the tiny reactionary wahhbist branch of Islam, most Muslims do not believe that anyone, including other Muslims, who fails to share their beliefs should be exterminated. Or that if the jihadi should die in the process, he will be a martyr regaled in paradise with the prescribed 77 virgins.  

      Example: Saudi ordinary citizens who violate the ruling family's interpretation of Islam are subject to medieval punishments like dismemberment or stoning to death. On the other hand, the ruling family itself, protected by great wealth and power, violates their own stated interpretation with impunity, leading decadent lives in foreign places like London, debauched with liquor, sex, dress code violations and many other wahhabist sins.

      Example from Christianity: Some US fundamentalist Christians interpret scripture as ordering their particular church to take over the state, and are doing their best to make that happen. Most other professed Christians in the US, from Unitarians to Catholics, would deplore and denounce such projects. 

      I suspect that you are incorrigible in your simplistic understanding of how religious social institutions work, believing, as was clearly the assumption in the article you promoted, that particular Koranic statements or interpretations prove that all Muslims must be distrusted and can be accused of taking over the world. So the following elaboration of an elementary principle of social inquiry is aimed primarily at other list subscribers who may be more open to learning.

      As any anthropologist can explain, it is a cardinal rule of inquiry into how human society works, to never assume that professed claims about how it works - policy statements, law, scripture, oral tradition, constitutional documents, etc. - describe real behavior patterns. Instead, students of society must actually observe behavior, discover patterns empirically, then compare and contrast what they find with professed claims. In fact experience has shown that it is best to start with the hypothesis that the two may be quite different.

      The above principle is so elementary that it could be taught in grade school social studies, but rarely is. Perhaps the ruling class is afraid such education might get kids thinking critically at an early age about how their society really works. 

      Example: US law forbids theft. A poor person can get jail time for as little as shoplifting a toothbrush. But, as Jada pointed out, financial elites can steal trillions of dollars from the public and rarely get prosecuted for what the law clearly says are felonious crimes. 

      I hope that I need not say more on this. 


      On Sun, Nov 26, 2017 at 10:09 PM, 'Madeline Weld' madweld@... [gaiapc] <gaiapc@...> wrote:



      I have been a member of Gaia for a very long time although I post infrequently. I lived in Pakistan for two years during the 1960s (at which point I never dreamed that I’d ever have to worry about sharia in my own country) and have been reading about Islam since the 1990s. I would guess  that you have not read any of the Koran nor Hadith nor any non-milquetoast analysis of Islamic theology and therefore will never attribute any atrocities committed in the name of Islam to – well, gosh – the Islamic theology cited by the attackers. I suppose you think that jihad is all about self-improvement and that the US or Israel must somehow be responsible for the latest massive attack on the Sufi mosque in Sinai (they’re considered hertics by most Sunnis, don’t you know?).


      But if you promise not to use ad hominem attacks on me, I promise not to suggest that you are one of the people with “historical and sociological ignorance,” at least when it comes to Islam. Agreed?




      From: gaiapc@... [mailto:gaiapc@...]
      Sent: November 26, 2017 3:25 PM

      To: gaiapc@...
      Subject: Re: [gaiapc] FW: The Movie "Killing Europe" has been cancelled





      This piece is the kind of trash people think they can seriously post when you use loose language like 'Islamic takeover'. Who is this Madeline Weld, who to my knowledge has never posted on the list before? A troll intent on preying on the historical and sociological ignorance of some people on this list? 


      Hardly "unconstrained analysis", this piece is typical of US imperial establishment geopolitical strategy papers, whose self-imposed constraint is to never mentioned the historical reality of US imperial control, in this case of the Middle East. For then  would have to acknowledge the itself as the primary cause of the rise of Islamic extremism from a tiny impotent minority to a threat. It would have to admit the role of  US govt agencies like the CIA committed to covert organized crime, in this case building these violent Islamic minorities into ultimately uncontrolled forces. The CIA, like the sorcerer's apprentice in Goethe's folktale, repeatedly plays out its playbook recipes from Guatemala to Libya to the Philippines, always producing the same blowback as violence it cannot no longer control. 


      Instead, this piece uses typical ideological tactics to sell its argument: the repeated image of the West/US as a 'burning house', arab words like ummah and dawah, never adequately defined, as scare tactics, and always equating all of the diversity of Islamic society with chosen references in Sharia law or extremist publications. Its cartoon graphic faults Alinskyism, Political Correctness and Postmodernism as sources of US vulnerability to Islamic takeover, but never explains why or even what these are. Alinskyism??? 1960s community organizing? Really? Too bad the author does not reveal the twisted analysis behind that idea. 


      The reality on the ground that pieces like this deliberately ignore is that the only "burning house" currently is the cities and economy of the Middle East caused mainly by decades of brutal US Air Force bombing, fully supported by Canadian and European vassal states, often deliberately targeting civilian populations, in a desperate attempt to retain Western control of the region's oil. Whatever the truth of Islamic extremist goals of 'takeover', this US state-sponsored terrorism is the main cause of the influx into Western countries, of refugees from the region, people of all faiths, not just Muslims. 


      Here are the realities on the ground that this ideologically driven geopolitical piece would like us to ignore:


      1. The reality is that imperial violence has generated violent resistance by extremists. It does not take a PhD in geopolitics to see that. 


      2. The reality is that the US-Saudi-Zionist triumvirate has used the violent elements it has created to further destroy the region and take down the governments that are leading the trend toward secularization and regaining sovereignty: Libya, Iraq and Syria, which threatens Western imperialism and backward, racist theocracies like the Saudi monarchy and Israel. Were it not for a century of Western imperial interference, the Middle East likely would have become much more peaceful, modern and secular than it is today.  


      3. The reality is that most ordinary people who are political and economic refugees from Western imperial exploitation everywhere would prefer to remain in their home countries if life was livable there. Ask emigrant Hondurans, Syrians, Malians, whoever - that's what they say. The great majority espouse no ideology of takeover - just the opposite. They send money home to help their families survive until conditions improve so that they themselves can return home. 


      On Sun, Nov 26, 2017 at 12:41 AM, 'Madeline Weld' madweld@rogers.com [gaiapc] <gaiapc@...> wrote:


      This Unconstrained Analysis by Stephen Coughlin explains how the “Ummah” works in conjunction with jihad and dawa to “burn down the house” of our civilization. It was produced in the Obama era when words like jihad and Islam (associated with terror) were verboten, but it still explains how things work.




      From: gaiapc@... [mailto:gaiapc@...]
      Sent: November 25, 2017 4:26 PM
      To: gaiapc@...
      Subject: Re: [gaiapc] FW: The Movie "Killing Europe" has been cancelled





      I would be careful to avoid language like "Islamic primary goal of 'take over'" in an era when extremist identity politics has driven so many people into blatant anti-islamic bigotry. Even on this discussion list, people whose education includes little social science have deliberately conflated violent Wahabist Islamic extremist minorities with all of Islam. Practitioners of modern moderate Islam are no more expansionist than Christianity. Actually less so than Christian missionaries I have encountered in Africa, Latin America and elsewhere, who all over the colonized world have been the cultural advance guard of Western imperialism, congenial associates of the imperialist armed forces. The only difference between Christian missionaries and the Islamic jihadi extremists is the division of labor: the Christians leave the brutality to the military arm of the imperialist 'take over'. The Jihadis combine the two. 


      On Sat, Nov 25, 2017 at 9:53 AM, Don Chisholm donchism@... [gaiapc] <gaiapc@...> wrote:


      Thanks for your ongoing efforts in this 'wakeup' campaign. 
      I first 'woke up' to the issue of the Islamic primary goal of 'take over' when, 12 years ago in Ontario they petitioned government to be able to administer their flock under sharia law.  There are plenty of web references, but this one highlights the view of Theresa May about their quest. 

      https://www.jihadwatch.org/ 2016/07/a-lesson-from-ontario- canada-for-sharia-law- advocate-theresa-may

      Under the veil of religion, it is a trojan horse of their jihad movement.

      On 2017-11-25 2:10 AM, 'Madeline Weld' madweld@... [gaiapc] wrote:


      If anyone in the Ottawa area was planning to go to the Ottawa Public Library on Saturday to view the film Killing Europe, don’t go – it has been cancelled. The OPL caved into pressure from Antifa. However, the good news is that you can watch the film in the comfort of your own home by vimeo for a lot less than it would have cost you to go the Library. You can see it here for $3.74 CAD: https://vimeo.com/ondemand/ killingeurope/238970726.


      On Wednesday, I spoke to someone at the Library about security. Everything was still set to go. I had made the booking on October 24th. The Library only notified us of the cancellation on Friday. Not by phone, although they had my phon e numbers. The Library said that the film did not conform to their Terms and Conditions, but they had since October 24th to see it, and didn’t cancel it until the last minute. People were not only calling the Library, they were also calling the mayor and city councillors demanding the film be cancelled.


      You might consider contacting the mayor and your councillor and express your disappointment about the stifling of free speech.  You might also consider contacting the Library and express your disappointment that they caved in to pressure. The OPL chief executive officer, who notified me of the cancellation, is Danielle McDonald, danielle.mcdonald@ biblioottawalibrary.ca.


      But the good news is that the filmmaker Michael Hansen has informed us that as a result of all the publicity, lots and lots of people are viewing his film online. And that’s the whole point, to get lots of people to see the film.


      We plan to try to show the film early next year. The venue will probably be in Toronto.





      Posted by: "Madeline Weld" <madweld@...>

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      Karl North -  http://karlnorth.com/
      "Pueblo que canta no morira" - Cuban saying
      "They only call it class warfare when we fight back" - Anon.
      "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
       —Saudi saying

      Karl North -  http://karlnorth.com/
      "Pueblo que canta no morira" - Cuban saying
      "They only call it class warfare when we fight back" - Anon.
      "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
       —Saudi saying
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