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"They left Islam and now tour the US to talk about it"

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  • Steve Kurtz
    They are brave, considering what Islam says (and many, if not most, Muslims believe) should happen to apostates and atheists… Steve
    Message 1 of 10 , 29 Nov, 2017

      They are brave, considering what Islam says (and many, if not most, Muslims believe) should happen to apostates and atheists…



      —————————————
      Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
      Voltaire (1770)

    • Stanley N Salthe
      It shows how dangerous that faith is! STAN On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 8:21 AM, Steve Kurtz kurtzs@ncf.ca [gaiapc]
      Message 2 of 10 , 29 Nov, 2017
        It shows how dangerous that faith is!

        STAN

        On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 8:21 AM, Steve Kurtz kurtzs@... [gaiapc] <gaiapc@...> wrote:
         


        They are brave, considering what Islam says (and many, if not most, Muslims believe) should happen to apostates and atheists…



        —————————————
        Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
        Voltaire (1770)


      • Karl S North
        Also brave are those non-jews who dare to resist the chosen people in their ongoing violent colonization of the promised land , when its orthodox jeshivas
        Message 3 of 10 , 29 Nov, 2017
          Also brave are those non-jews who dare to resist the "chosen people" in their ongoing violent colonization of  the "promised land", when its orthodox jeshivas quote judaic sacred texts to teach children that it is their sacred duty to kill all resisting goys and other infidels, including "self-hating jews". 


          On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 8:21 AM, Steve Kurtz kurtzs@... [gaiapc] <gaiapc@...> wrote:
           


          They are brave, considering what Islam says (and many, if not most, Muslims believe) should happen to apostates and atheists…



          —————————————
          Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
          Voltaire (1770)




          --
          Karl North -  http://karlnorth.com/
          "Pueblo que canta no morira" - Cuban saying
          "They only call it class warfare when we fight back" - Anon.
          "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
           —Saudi saying
        • Steve Kurtz
          There are also many Jews who speak out against Zionism and the behavior of many Israelis. (I am 75% Jewish blood and was raised Jewish, but turned atheist in
          Message 4 of 10 , 29 Nov, 2017
            There are also many Jews who speak out against Zionism and the behavior of many Israelis. (I am 75% Jewish blood and was raised Jewish, but turned atheist in my late teens)

            Steve

            On Nov 29, 2017, at 11:58 AM, Karl S North knorth@... [gaiapc] <gaiapc@...> wrote:


            Also brave are those non-jews who dare to resist the "chosen people" in their ongoing violent colonization of  the "promised land", when its orthodox jeshivas quote judaic sacred texts to teach children that it is their sacred duty to kill all resisting goys and other infidels, including "self-hating jews". 


            On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 8:21 AM, Steve Kurtz kurtzs@... [gaiapc] <gaiapc@...> wrote:
             


            They are brave, considering what Islam says (and many, if not most, Muslims believe) should happen to apostates and atheists…



            —————————————
            Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
            Voltaire (1770)





            -- 
            Karl North -  http://karlnorth.com/
            "Pueblo que canta no morira" - Cuban saying
            "They only call it class warfare when we fight back" - Anon.
            "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
             —Saudi saying


            —————————————
            Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
            Voltaire (1770)

          • Karl S North
            So why is it that your posts are a habitual anti-islamic drumbeat presenting one side of the story (a habit with a long history as most list members surely
            Message 5 of 10 , 29 Nov, 2017
              So why is it that your posts are a habitual anti-islamic drumbeat presenting one side of the story (a habit with a long history as most list members surely know)? Articles with lurid titles that implicate all Islam and can only incite bigotry are typical: 

              Muslim children are being spoon‑fed misogyny

              Your language - "considering what Islam says" -  repeatedly portrays a monolithic Islam, and betrays your political illiteracy. By now, it is clear from Madeline's many posts that they exhibit the same biased, simplistic views of the issue as yours do. If these habits of thinking are a manifestation of the Old School Conservatism that you say you both profess, they do not speak well of it. 


              On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 12:07 PM, Steve Kurtz kurtzs@... [gaiapc] <gaiapc@...> wrote:
               

              There are also many Jews who speak out against Zionism and the behavior of many Israelis. (I am 75% Jewish blood and was raised Jewish, but turned atheist in my late teens)


              Steve

              On Nov 29, 2017, at 11:58 AM, Karl S North knorth@... [gaiapc] <gaiapc@...> wrote:


              Also brave are those non-jews who dare to resist the "chosen people" in their ongoing violent colonization of  the "promised land", when its orthodox jeshivas quote judaic sacred texts to teach children that it is their sacred duty to kill all resisting goys and other infidels, including "self-hating jews". 


              On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 8:21 AM, Steve Kurtz kurtzs@... [gaiapc] < gaiapc@...> wrote:
               


              They are brave, considering what Islam says (and many, if not most, Muslims believe) should happen to apostates and atheists…



              —————————————
              Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
              Voltaire (1770)





              -- 
              Karl North -  http://karlnorth.com/
              "Pueblo que canta no morira" - Cuban saying
              "They only call it class warfare when we fight back" - Anon.
              "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
               —Saudi saying


              —————————————
              Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
              Voltaire (1770)




              --
              Karl North -  http://karlnorth.com/
              "Pueblo que canta no morira" - Cuban saying
              "They only call it class warfare when we fight back" - Anon.
              "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
               —Saudi saying
            • Steve Kurtz
              Read the content, not the headlines. Are you that swayed by journalists trying to keep their jobs? You seem to be as Portside as most posters on the enviro
              Message 6 of 10 , 29 Nov, 2017
                Read the content, not the headlines. Are you that swayed by journalists trying to keep their jobs? You seem to be as Portside as most posters on the enviro lists I’ve been on. First off, the blame game fixes zero. And I’ll wager for charity on that. Note that I’ve had zero takers betting on outcoes from listmembers. 

                Second, I excuse your ad hominem to Madeline and me as you can’t help yourself. You are a great testament to the illusion of free will. ;-)

                And I can’t help myself, either, for pointing out the failure of socialism in the 20th and 21st centuries. So much for accuracy of history! Revolutions come and go. Top dogs arise from each one, only to eventually be ousted in time. 

                BTW, did you read today about Garrison Keillor being fired from Minnesota Public Radio for alleged sexual impropriety? He and Franken are not conservatives, dontcha know… ;-)

                Bias is biological. The more into overshoot we get, the more conflict there will be. I’ll wager on that too. Wagons will be circled tighter and tighter. Atheist ex Jews like me will be scapegoated. I’ll fight, not roll over.

                Enjoy your righteousness.

                Steve

                —————————————
                Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
                Voltaire (1770)

                On Nov 29, 2017, at 1:45 PM, Karl S North knorth@... [gaiapc] <gaiapc@...> wrote:


                So why is it that your posts are a habitual anti-islamic drumbeat presenting one side of the story (a habit with a long history as most list members surely know)? Articles with lurid titles that implicate all Islam and can only incite bigotry are typical: 

                Muslim children are being spoon‑fed misogyny

                Your language - "considering what Islam says" -  repeatedly portrays a monolithic Islam, and betrays your political illiteracy. By now, it is clear from Madeline's many posts that they exhibit the same biased, simplistic views of the issue as yours do. If these habits of thinking are a manifestation of the Old School Conservatism that you say you both profess, they do not speak well of it. 


                On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 12:07 PM, Steve Kurtz kurtzs@... [gaiapc] <gaiapc@...> wrote:
                 

                There are also many Jews who speak out against Zionism and the behavior of many Israelis. (I am 75% Jewish blood and was raised Jewish, but turned atheist in my late teens)


                Steve

                On Nov 29, 2017, at 11:58 AM, Karl S North knorth@... [gaiapc] <gaiapc@...> wrote:


                Also brave are those non-jews who dare to resist the "chosen people" in their ongoing violent colonization of  the "promised land", when its orthodox jeshivas quote judaic sacred texts to teach children that it is their sacred duty to kill all resisting goys and other infidels, including "self-hating jews". 


                On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 8:21 AM, Steve Kurtz kurtzs@... [gaiapc] < gaiapc@...> wrote:
                 


                They are brave, considering what Islam says (and many, if not most, Muslims believe) should happen to apostates and atheists…



                —————————————
                Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
                Voltaire (1770)





                -- 
                Karl North -  http://karlnorth.com/
                "Pueblo que canta no morira" - Cuban saying
                "They only call it class warfare when we fight back" - Anon.
                "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
                 —Saudi saying


                —————————————
                Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
                Voltaire (1770)





                -- 
                Karl North -  http://karlnorth.com/
                "Pueblo que canta no morira" - Cuban saying
                "They only call it class warfare when we fight back" - Anon.
                "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
                 —Saudi saying


              • Karl S North
                I promised myself that I would no longer take the bait of your short fuse, shoot from the hip posts, but since you have repeatedly made several conveniently
                Message 7 of 10 , 29 Nov, 2017
                  I promised myself that I would no longer take the bait of your short fuse, shoot from the hip posts, but since you have repeatedly made several conveniently vague, therefore cowardly, unsubstantiated accusations of ad hominem in a row, someone needs to call you on it, for it sadly damages the quality of discourse on this list. 

                  Here you repeated the one you made several days ago, fingering me this time, but still not making good on the accusation, even though others have called you out on it, agreeing that no one in the exchange criticized anything but statements. You said, " I excuse your ad hominem to Madeline and me as you can’t help yourself". 

                  And in a recent response to Jada about the Times of London article,  you said, "If you can refute the article, please do so. Attacking it with zero evidence is an ad hominem fallacy." Criticizing an article is ad hominem? Equating criticisms of statements with criticisms of persons is not only a stupid error, it is a commonly used off the wall retort from people who can think of nothing more intelligent to say. 

                  So I hereby put you and everyone on this list on notice that when anyone makes serious accusations, they have a responsibility to put up (evidence) or shut up. If not, I will call them on it, every time. And for the sake of decent list discussion, so should everyone else call them on it, every time, until such persons no longer make such nasty posts.    

                  On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 2:49 PM, Steve Kurtz kurtzs@... [gaiapc] <gaiapc@...> wrote:
                   

                  Read the content, not the headlines. Are you that swayed by journalists trying to keep their jobs? You seem to be as Portside as most posters on the enviro lists I’ve been on. First off, the blame game fixes zero. And I’ll wager for charity on that. Note that I’ve had zero takers betting on outcoes from listmembers. 


                  Second, I excuse your ad hominem to Madeline and me as you can’t help yourself. You are a great testament to the illusion of free will. ;-)

                  And I can’t help myself, either, for pointing out the failure of socialism in the 20th and 21st centuries. So much for accuracy of history! Revolutions come and go. Top dogs arise from each one, only to eventually be ousted in time. 

                  BTW, did you read today about Garrison Keillor being fired from Minnesota Public Radio for alleged sexual impropriety? He and Franken are not conservatives, dontcha know… ;-)

                  Bias is biological. The more into overshoot we get, the more conflict there will be. I’ll wager on that too. Wagons will be circled tighter and tighter. Atheist ex Jews like me will be scapegoated. I’ll fight, not roll over.

                  Enjoy your righteousness.

                  Steve

                  —————————————
                  Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
                  Voltaire (1770)

                  On Nov 29, 2017, at 1:45 PM, Karl S North knorth@... [gaiapc] <gaiapc@...> wrote:


                  So why is it that your posts are a habitual anti-islamic drumbeat presenting one side of the story (a habit with a long history as most list members surely know)? Articles with lurid titles that implicate all Islam and can only incite bigotry are typical: 

                  Muslim children are being spoon‑fed misogyny

                  Your language - "considering what Islam says" -  repeatedly portrays a monolithic Islam, and betrays your political illiteracy. By now, it is clear from Madeline's many posts that they exhibit the same biased, simplistic views of the issue as yours do. If these habits of thinking are a manifestation of the Old School Conservatism that you say you both profess, they do not speak well of it. 


                  On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 12:07 PM, Steve Kurtz kurtzs@... [gaiapc] < gaiapc@...> wrote:
                   

                  There are also many Jews who speak out against Zionism and the behavior of many Israelis. (I am 75% Jewish blood and was raised Jewish, but turned atheist in my late teens)


                  Steve

                  On Nov 29, 2017, at 11:58 AM, Karl S North knorth@... [ gaiapc] <gaiapc@...> wrote:


                  Also brave are those non-jews who dare to resist the "chosen people" in their ongoing violent colonization of  the "promised land", when its orthodox jeshivas quote judaic sacred texts to teach children that it is their sacred duty to kill all resisting goys and other infidels, including "self-hating jews". 


                  On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 8:21 AM, Steve Kurtz kurtzs@... [gaiapc] < gaiapc@...> wrote:
                   


                  They are brave, considering what Islam says (and many, if not most, Muslims believe) should happen to apostates and atheists…



                  —————————————
                  Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
                  Voltaire (1770)





                  -- 
                  Karl North -  http://karlnorth.com/
                  "Pueblo que canta no morira" - Cuban saying
                  "They only call it class warfare when we fight back" - Anon.
                  "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
                   —Saudi saying


                  —————————————
                  Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
                  Voltaire (1770)





                  -- 
                  Karl North -  http://karlnorth.com/
                  "Pueblo que canta no morira" - Cuban saying
                  "They only call it class warfare when we fight back" - Anon.
                  "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
                   —Saudi saying





                  --
                  Karl North -  http://karlnorth.com/
                  "Pueblo que canta no morira" - Cuban saying
                  "They only call it class warfare when we fight back" - Anon.
                  "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
                   —Saudi saying
                • Steve Kurtz
                  ... (our) illiteracy, biased, simplistic views, habits of thinking… Gee, that’s astute analysis of the content of the article and shows intimate knowledge
                  Message 8 of 10 , 29 Nov, 2017
                    Mr North contends that these put downs are not ad hominem:

                     your political illiteracy. By now, it is clear from Madeline's many posts that they exhibit the same biased, simplistic views of the issue as yours do. If these habits of thinking are a manifestation of the Old School Conservatism that you say you both profess, they do not speak well of it.

                    (our) illiteracy, biased, simplistic views, habits of thinking…


                    Gee, that’s astute analysis of the content of the article and shows intimate knowledge of the Koran ! ;-)

                    It so happens that I pasted a friends short intro which had the “Islam” statement, but in general I agree with him since there is ample text in the Koran supporting his position.

                    Cheers on the Portside!

                    Steve



                    On Nov 29, 2017, at 4:35 PM, Karl S North knorth@... [gaiapc] <gaiapc@...> wrote:

                     your political illiteracy. By now, it is clear from Madeline's many posts that they exhibit the same biased, simplistic views of the issue as yours do. If these habits of thinking are a manifestation of the Old School Conservatism that you say you both profess, they do not speak well of it.

                    —————————————
                    Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
                    Voltaire (1770)

                  • Stanley N Salthe
                    Building on Steve s point here -- the Quran CAN be interpreted to urge violence against infidels. It is a poetic text which can have many, even contradictory
                    Message 9 of 10 , 30 Nov, 2017
                      Building on Steve's point here -- the Quran CAN be interpreted to urge violence against infidels. It is a poetic text which can have many, even contradictory interpretations -- ALL valid.

                      STAN

                      On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 4:44 PM, Steve Kurtz kurtzs@... [gaiapc] <gaiapc@...> wrote:
                       

                      Mr North contends that these put downs are not ad hominem:


                       your political illiteracy. By now, it is clear from Madeline's many posts that they exhibit the same biased, simplistic views of the issue as yours do. If these habits of thinking are a manifestation of the Old School Conservatism that you say you both profess, they do not speak well of it.

                      (our) illiteracy, biased, simplistic views, habits of thinking…


                      Gee, that’s astute analysis of the content of the article and shows intimate knowledge of the Koran ! ;-)

                      It so happens that I pasted a friends short intro which had the “Islam” statement, but in general I agree with him since there is ample text in the Koran supporting his position.

                      Cheers on the Portside!

                      Steve



                      On Nov 29, 2017, at 4:35 PM, Karl S North knorth@... [gaiapc] <gaiapc@...> wrote:

                       your political illiteracy. By now, it is clear from Madeline's many posts that they exhibit the same biased, simplistic views of the issue as yours do. If these habits of thinking are a manifestation of the Old School Conservatism that you say you both profess, they do not speak well of it.

                      —————————————
                      Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
                      Voltaire (1770)


                    • Richard Balfour
                      You see, here is the problem. Ancient texts. Interpreted so many ways, some nicer, some not so... but some arse turns the text into a weapon, pity the rest As
                      Message 10 of 10 , 30 Nov, 2017
                        You see, here is the problem.  Ancient texts. Interpreted so many ways, some nicer, some not so...
                        but some arse turns the text into a weapon, pity the rest
                        As the text is the basis of the violence....  who do you target, folks who also revere silly old bs. the text or hive off jihadists?
                        The violent minority shfiting jihad shows you cannot ignore the relationship; the escalation DC sent out
                        r



                        On 2017-11-30, at 6:29 AM, Stanley N Salthe ssalthe@... [gaiapc] wrote:

                         

                        Building on Steve's point here -- the Quran CAN be interpreted to urge violence against infidels. It is a poetic text which can have many, even contradictory interpretations -- ALL valid.

                        STAN

                        On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 4:44 PM, Steve Kurtz kurtzs@... [gaiapc] <gaiapc@...> wrote:
                         

                        Mr North contends that these put downs are not ad hominem:


                         your political illiteracy. By now, it is clear from Madeline's many posts that they exhibit the same biased, simplistic views of the issue as yours do. If these habits of thinking are a manifestation of the Old School Conservatism that you say you both profess, they do not speak well of it.

                        (our) illiteracy, biased, simplistic views, habits of thinking…


                        Gee, that’s astute analysis of the content of the article and shows intimate knowledge of the Koran ! ;-)

                        It so happens that I pasted a friends short intro which had the “Islam” statement, but in general I agree with him since there is ample text in the Koran supporting his position.

                        Cheers on the Portside!

                        Steve



                        On Nov 29, 2017, at 4:35 PM, Karl S North knorth@... [gaiapc] <gaiapc@...> wrote:

                         your political illiteracy. By now, it is clear from Madeline's many posts that they exhibit the same biased, simplistic views of the issue as yours do. If these habits of thinking are a manifestation of the Old School Conservatism that you say you both profess, they do not speak well of it.

                        —————————————
                        Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
                        Voltaire (1770)





                        Richard Balfour  
                        Strategic Planner
                        • SPORPORI Strategic Planning for Ocean Rise and Peak Oil Resettlement Institute

                        7276 Denman Road Denman Island BC Canada V0R 1T0             250 335 0766
                        Balfour Strategic Planning
                        www.plancanada.com

                        • Vancouver Peak Oil Executive www.vancouverpeakoil.org

                        balfourarch@...











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