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Bardi: Are We Decoupling from oil?

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  • Steve Kurtz
    He thinks (like I do) that coal will be used as crude oil supplies dwindle. Not a pleasant thought. As he says: Happy New Year anyway. Steve ...
    Message 1 of 4 , 31 Dec, 2017
      He thinks (like I do) that coal will be used as crude oil supplies dwindle. Not a pleasant thought. As he says: Happy New Year anyway.

      Steve



      —————————————
      Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
      Voltaire (1770)

    • Jada Thacker
      General comment Re decoupling : So-called decoupling of Gross Domestic Product (GDP) from oil consumption is an asinine idea. You can t decouple the means
      Message 2 of 4 , 31 Dec, 2017
        General comment Re "decoupling":

        So-called "decoupling" of Gross Domestic Product (GDP) from oil consumption is an asinine idea. You can't decouple the means of production from the consumable value of the commodities derived therefrom. What you can do is masquerade GDP as a bogus, dollar-denominated measure of progress, prosperity, or what have you -- without divulging that "net interest" on monetary debt is calculated as "production" in the GDP formula. Apparently this is difficult to understand for financial capitalist "environmentalists" whose investment income is derived from net interest paid by others. Such folks would like to fantasize they can make a monetary profit without exploiting either finite energy resources or debtors.

        Jada 


        On Sunday, December 31, 2017 3:09 PM, "Steve Kurtz kurtzs@... [gaiapc]" <gaiapc@...> wrote:


         
        He thinks (like I do) that coal will be used as crude oil supplies dwindle. Not a pleasant thought. As he says: Happy New Year anyway.

        Steve



        —————————————
        Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
        Voltaire (1770)



      • Steve Kurtz
        Jada. I agree that GDP is a poor measure of well-being, particularly p/capita. I wrote a piece for a Future journal around 15 years ago arguing that
        Message 3 of 4 , 31 Dec, 2017



          Jada. I agree that GDP is a poor measure of well-being, particularly p/capita. I wrote a piece for a Future journal around 15 years ago arguing that de-materialization of the economy was BS. Destruction by hurricanes, wildfires, floods, human violence…is said to raise GDP, and that is BS in my opinion.

          Bardi means economic throughput in my reading of his piece. And he says it is *not* likely possible. See the subtitle at the beginning of it:

          "Decoupling": are we really so smart that we can do more with less? Apparently not: we can paint things in green, but it is not the same thing. But so is life and happy 2018 to everybody! 

          And this early on:

          So, if we can do the same things with much less energy, then we could grow the economy without using more energy, solving the climate problem and also the depletion problem. It is part of the concept of "dematerialization" of the economy. Then we paint everything in green and all will be well in the best of worlds. 

          But there has to be something wrong with this idea, because it is just not happening, at least at the global scale. 

          Note that Bardi is saying the same thing in the above sentence! Why are you bothering to crap on retirees like me who invest in State bonds (MA in my case) to provide a retirement income? And what about that causes people like me to find it:

          difficult to understand for financial capitalist "environmentalists" whose investment income is derived from net interest paid by others. 

          ad hominems reflect on the user!

          Steve

          On Dec 31, 2017, at 9:24 PM, Jada Thacker jadathacker@... [gaiapc] <gaiapc@...> wrote:


          General comment Re "decoupling":

          So-called "decoupling" of Gross Domestic Product (GDP) from oil consumption is an asinine idea. You can't decouple the means of production from the consumable value of the commodities derived therefrom. What you can do is masquerade GDP as a bogus, dollar-denominated measure of progress, prosperity, or what have you -- without divulging that "net interest" on monetary debt is calculated as "production" in the GDP formula. Apparently this is difficult to understand for financial capitalist "environmentalists" whose investment income is derived from net interest paid by others. Such folks would like to fantasize they can make a monetary profit without exploiting either finite energy resources or debtors.

          Jada 


          On Sunday, December 31, 2017 3:09 PM, "Steve Kurtz kurtzs@... [gaiapc]" <gaiapc@...> wrote:


           
          He thinks (like I do) that coal will be used as crude oil supplies dwindle. Not a pleasant thought. As he says: Happy New Year anyway.

          Steve



          —————————————
          Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
          Voltaire (1770)





          —————————————
          Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
          Voltaire (1770)

        • Helmut L
          Decoupling is nonsense indeed. Thanks for the aricle excerpts, Steve. As to financial capitalist environmentalists I myself may also be considered being
          Message 4 of 4 , Jan 2 10:19 AM

            Decoupling is nonsense indeed. Thanks for the aricle excerpts, Steve.
            As to "financial capitalist "environmentalists"" I myself may also be considered being one - critiqueing from a safe luxury environment (Geneva). I think on these yahoo lists we're all "rich" greenies. :-)
            The "financial capitalist "environmentalists"" are possibly the superrich posturing to help saving what they happen to find *worth*while.

            Helmut@... Enjoy today
            www.ecoglobe.ch/scenarios
            www.ecoglobe.ch/requiem

            Le 1 janv. 2018 03:51, "Steve Kurtz kurtzs@... [gaiapc]" <gaiapc@...> a écrit :
             




            Jada. I agree that GDP is a poor measure of well-being, particularly p/capita. I wrote a piece for a Future journal around 15 years ago arguing that de-materialization of the economy was BS. Destruction by hurricanes, wildfires, floods, human violence…is said to raise GDP, and that is BS in my opinion.

            Bardi means economic throughput in my reading of his piece.. And he says it is *not* likely possible. See the subtitle at the beginning of it:

            "Decoupling": are we really so smart that we can do more with less? Apparently not: we can paint things in green, but it is not the same thing. But so is life and happy 2018 to everybody! 

            And this early on:

            So, if we can do the same things with much less energy, then we could grow the economy without using more energy, solving the climate problem and also the depletion problem. It is part of the concept of "dematerialization" of the economy. Then we paint everything in green and all will be well in the best of worlds. 

            But there has to be something wrong with this idea, because it is just not happening, at least at the global scale. 

            Note that Bardi is saying the same thing in the above sentence! Why are you bothering to crap on retirees like me who invest in State bonds (MA in my case) to provide a retirement income? And what about that causes people like me to find it:

            difficult to understand for financial capitalist "environmentalists" whose investment income is derived from net interest paid by others. 

            ad hominems reflect on the user!

            Steve

            On Dec 31, 2017, at 9:24 PM, Jada Thacker jadathacker@... [gaiapc] <gaiapc@...> wrote:


            General comment Re "decoupling":

            So-called "decoupling" of Gross Domestic Product (GDP) from oil consumption is an asinine idea. You can't decouple the means of production from the consumable value of the commodities derived therefrom. What you can do is masquerade GDP as a bogus, dollar-denominated measure of progress, prosperity, or what have you -- without divulging that "net interest" on monetary debt is calculated as "production" in the GDP formula. Apparently this is difficult to understand for financial capitalist "environmentalists" whose investment income is derived from net interest paid by others. Such folks would like to fantasize they can make a monetary profit without exploiting either finite energy resources or debtors.

            Jada 


            On Sunday, December 31, 2017 3:09 PM, "Steve Kurtz kurtzs@... [gaiapc]" <gaiapc@...> wrote:


             
            He thinks (like I do) that coal will be used as crude oil supplies dwindle. Not a pleasant thought. As he says: Happy New Year anyway.

            Steve



            —————————————
            Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
            Voltaire (1770)





            —————————————
            Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
            Voltaire (1770)

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